disease of the brain?

[hippie37]

disease of the brain?

Beatle that is a brilliant post thanks for that I am really seeing things in a new light concerning the 'disease' issue that has been debated a few times since I've been here. I'd love to copy this post on another forum if I may (with your permission of course)!. Don't want to infringe on copyright laws now do I.

Love and Happiness
Hippie
xx

[hippie37]

disease of the brain?

By the way beatle! I haven't just changed my mind over this issue, just like that, but it has really got me thinking on how I approach alcoholism philosophically. I will need further reading I think to change my mind completely on this one. got any sources yourself for that online, maybe a link or two before I go off googling like mad!!!

Love and Happiness
Hippie
xx

[fammy]

disease of the brain?

beatle;215355 wrote: Sorry, I am in the middle of putting my kids to bed, but this thread intrigued me. Of course you can google yourself but, here .... (please read it to the bottom if you haven't seen this before... it is both condemning and very inspiring--- we CAN recover!)

T.H.I.Q. --Biochemical Culprit

Heredity studies, done all over the world, clearly show that genetics is far more significant in determining whether or not you'll be an alcoholic than any other single factor. Genetics is more significant than any combination of social or environmental factors examined.

The report is not saying that a person is born an alcoholic. However, evidence is conclusive that some people are indeed at greater risks to alcoholism because of their heredity, and if they ever start drinking they run a high risk of developing the disease.

If you love your children don't condemn them with a high chance of getting this disease, stop your drinking!

T.H.I.Q. was discovered in brains of alcoholics in Houston, Texas by a scientist named Virginia Davis who was doing cancer research. For her study she needed fresh human brains and used bodies of homeless winos who had died during the night and were picked up by Houston police in the morning.

She discovered in the brains of those chronic alcoholics a substance that is closely related to Heroin. This substance, known to scientists, is called Tetrahydrolsoqulnoline or THIQ When a person shoots heroin into their body, some of it breaks down and turns into THIQ The Alcoholics studied had not been using heroin so how did the THIQ get there?

When the normal adult drinker takes in alcohol, it is very rapidly eliminated at the rate of about one drink per hour. The body first converts the alcohol into something called Acetaldehyde. This chemical is VERY TOXIC and if it were to build up inside us, we would get VIOLENTLY SICK AND COULD DIE. But Mother Nature helps us to get rid of acetaldehyde very quickly. She efficiently changes it a couple of more times - into carbon dioxide and water - which is eliminated through kidneys and lungs. That's what happens to normal drinkers. It also happens with alcoholic drinkers, but with alcoholic drinkers something additional happens.

What Virginia discovered in Huston has been extensively confirmed since. In alcoholic drinkers, a very small amount of poisonous acetaldehyde is not eliminated. Instead it goes to the brain. There through a very complicated biochemical process, it winds up as THIQ

Research has found the following:

THIQ is manufactured in the brain and only occurs in the brain of the alcoholic drinker. It is not manufactured in the brain of the normal social drinker of alcohol.

THIQ has been found to be highly addictive. It was tried in experimental use with animals during the Second World War when we were looking for a painkiller less addicting than morphine. THIQ was a pretty good pain killer but t couldn't be used on humans. It turned out to be much more addicting than morphine.

Experiments have shown that certain kinds of rats cannot be made to drink alcohol. Put in a cage with very weak solution of vodka and water., these rats refuse to touch it. They will literally thirst to death before the agree to drink alcohol. However, if you take the same kind of rat and put a minute quantity of THIQ into the rat's brain -- one quick injection -- the animal will immediately develope a preference for alcohol over water.

Studies done with monkeys, our close animal relative in medical terms, show the following:

A. Once the THIQ is injected into a monkey's brain, it stays there.

B. You can keep the monkey dry off alcohol for 7 years but brain studies

show that THIQ remains in place in the brain.

The alcoholic's body, like normal drinkers, changes the alcohol into acetaldehyde and then it changes most of it into carbon dioxide and water, which in the end kicks out through the kidneys and lungs. However, the alcoholic's bodies won't kick all these chemicals out. The Alcoholic's brain holds a few bits back and transforms them into THIQ. As THIQ is accumulated in the brain of an alhoholic, at some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, the alcoholic will cross over a shadowy line into a whole new way of living.

It is not known by medical science, at this time, where this line is or how much THIQ an individual brain will pile up before one crosses this line. Some predisposed people cross the line while they're teenagers, or earlier. Others cross in their 30's or 40's and others after retirement. But once this happens the alcoholic will be as hooked on alcohol, as he would have been hooked on heroin if he'd been shooting that instead.

Now comes the loss of control. Now it's chronic. progressive and incurable. Now it's all to clearly a disease.

GOOD NEWS:

Alcoholism is a disease.

Alcoholism is not the alcoholic's fault.

Alcoholics can get proper treatment for the disease, which begins with telling them these facts.

The alcoholic can be relieved of guilt.

The alcoholic can take on responsibility for arresting their disease.

The alcoholic can refuse to put more THIQ in their brains and refuse to activate the THIQ that is already there.

Alcoholics can and do recover.
NOW THATS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!! thanks for ur thorough response. stay strong

[wonderworld]

disease of the brain?

A very intersting post Fammy. It's a subject I have thought alot about. You said "the goal is sobriety" and I think that might mean different things to different people. For you that means total abstinence. But you sound angry about people "relapsing". They are making choices and examining the results. What's wrong with that? This is a very personal path, and everyone needs to find their own way.

I have been AF 95% of my adult life! And for 5 and 10 year stretches. Each time I went back to drinking (for anywhere from 3 weeks to 2 years), my reasons were different, and my needs in terms of recovery changed. I am not the same person who walked into my fist AA meeting 25 years ago. And, I would also point out that, in my opinion, there are people with 20+ years of sobriety in AA who I think have never dealt with their core issues. They are kept stable and safe by the program but stall out when it comes to deeper self-examination. And as they say I do not "want what they have", even though I'm just working my way back from a relapse too. There are also people I know who have very long term sobriety in AA who live healthy balanced lives, and go to an AA meeting only once in a while for a reminder.

I think the brain/genetic factor plays in for sure. I think it also depends on how you grew up. I found it interesting that Roberta Jewell was born from addicted parents, but was adopted and rasied by a sane loving family w/out addiction. Maybe this is part of why she was so highly functioning despite the alcohol, and why she has been able to moderate so successfully. I don't know. But the science suggests that the people with substance dependency do indeed have differences from "normal" drinkers in their makeup. And science is learning more about this all the time. There are also lots of people (me) who have used substances to "medicate" other disorders - like anxiety and depression.

And one last thing, while we're on the subject..... Sometimes I feel like people who "have to" be AF may look at it as a punishment or deprivation. For me, being AF is a really nice way to live. I like it. I found that there were so many things I used to do because I wanted to be "normal". Along the way, I started to ask - hey, if I have to have a few drinks to make it through those situations or to be comfortable, or to have a good time, then maybe I don't really want to do those things anyway. And if I WANT to do those things, then it's so worthwhile to figure out what's causing the anxiety and learn how to do them with joy and a peaceful mind. And good self-care. When I first got to this board, I was a little scared of (and jealous) of people who could moderate and be just fine. But now I feel like, what's the big deal? If I'm at peace with my path, and accept it, then hearing what everyone else does is no threat. And there are an awful lot of lovely Moderators here who DO have some of "what I want" in terms of serenity and health and good lives, and it's not because "they can drink" . I learn alot from them too.

AA has been the main method for achieving and sustaining abstinence since its inception. It has helped millions of people get sober and have good lives. I thank God that it exists. But even in AA, it's a very personal path, and no guarantee for sustained abstinence and deep recovery. And for some it's a perfect fit and a life saver. And that's just fine with me. I'm glad it's there. And I have no problem sitting in a meeting. Just like everywhere else - some things I hear are really helpful (especially hearing people's 'stories'), and some things drive me crazy and bum me out.
Good topic (there's alot of them onthis board today!!)
luv, wonder xx

[fammy]

disease of the brain?

wonderworld;215369 wrote: A very intersting post Fammy. It's a subject I have thought alot about. You said "the goal is sobriety" and I think that might mean different things to different people. For you that means total abstinence. But you sound angry about people "relapsing", who are you angry at? They are making choices and examning the results. What's wrong with that? This is a very personal path, and everyone needs to find their own way.

I have been AF 95% of my adult life! And for 5 and 10 year stretches. Each time I went back to drinking (for anywhere from 3 weeks to 2 years), my reasons were different, and my needs in terms of recovery changed. I am not the same person who walked into my fist AA meeting 25 years ago. And, I would also point out that, in my opinion, there are people with 20+ years of sobriety in AA who I think have never dealt with their core issues. They are kept stable and safe by the program but stall out when it comes to deeper self-examination. And as they say I do not "want what they have", even though I'm just working my way back from a relapse too. There are also people I know who have very long term sobriety in AA who live healthy balanced lives, and go to an AA meeting only once in a while for a reminder.

I think the brain/genetic factor plays in for sure. I think it also depends on how you grew up. I found it interesting that Roberta Jewell was born from addicted parents, but was adopted and rasied by a sane loving family w/out addiction. Maybe this is part of why she was so highly functioning despite the alcohol, and why she has been able to moderate so successfully. I don't know. But the science suggests that the people with substance dependency do indeed have differences from "normal" drinkers in their makeup. And science is learning more about this all the time.

And one last thing, while we're on the subject..... Sometimes I feel like people who "have to" be AF may look at it as a punishment or deprivation. For me, being AF is a really nice way to live. I like it. I found that there were so many things I used to do because I wanted to be "normal". Along the way, I started to ask - hey, if I have to have a few drinks to make it through those situations or to be comfortable, or to have a good time, then maybe I don't really want to do those things anyway. And if I WANT to do those things, then it's so worthwhile to figure out what's causing the anxiety and learn to do them with joy and a peaceful mind. When I first got to this board, I was a little scared of (and jealous) of people who could moderate and be just fine. But now I feel like, what's the big deal? If I'm at peace with my path, and accept it, then hearing what everyone else does is no threat. And there are an awful lot of lovely Moderators here who DO have some of "what I want" in terms of serenity and health and good lives. I learn alot from them too.

AA has been the main method for achieving and sustaining abstinence since its inception. It has helped millions of people get sober and have good lives. I thank God that it exists. But even in AA, it's a very personal path. And for some it's a perfect fit and a life saver. And that's just fine with me.

i am not amngry abourt relapse, its a part of recovery, doesn't have to be, but the truth is it is a part of people's recovery. I'm glad i relapsed after 12 years, i wasnt doing shit to better myself and my situation, now, i am on fire, so motivated, so energized, no more "fear of drinking" my life is soooo good today. I made the ref. to AA cuz i don't know any other program that has helped 2 million people stop drinking, thats all.

[wonderworld]

disease of the brain?

A very intersting post Fammy. It's a subject I have thought alot about. You said "the goal is sobriety" and I think that might mean different things to different people. For you that means total abstinence. But you sound angry about people "relapsing". They are making choices and examining the results. What's wrong with that? This is a very personal path, and everyone needs to find their own way.

I have been AF 95% of my adult life! And for 5 and 10 year stretches. Each time I went back to drinking (for anywhere from 3 weeks to 2 years), my reasons were different, and my needs in terms of recovery changed. I am not the same person who walked into my fist AA meeting 25 years ago. And, I would also point out that, in my opinion, there are people with 20+ years of sobriety in AA who I think have never dealt with their core issues. They are kept stable and safe by the program but stall out when it comes to deeper self-examination. And as they say I do not "want what they have", even though I'm just working my way back from a relapse too. There are also people I know who have very long term sobriety in AA who live healthy balanced lives, and go to an AA meeting only once in a while for a reminder.

I think the brain/genetic factor plays in for sure. I think it also depends on how you grew up. I found it interesting that Roberta Jewell was born from addicted parents, but was adopted and rasied by a sane loving family w/out addiction. Maybe this is part of why she was so highly functioning despite the alcohol, and why she has been able to moderate so successfully. I don't know. But the science suggests that the people with substance dependency do indeed have differences from "normal" drinkers in their makeup. And science is learning more about this all the time. There are also lots of people (me) who have used substances to "medicate" other disorders - like anxiety and depression.

And one last thing, while we're on the subject..... Sometimes I feel like people who "have to" be AF may look at it as a punishment or deprivation. For me, being AF is a really nice way to live. I like it. I found that there were so many things I used to do because I wanted to be "normal". Along the way, I started to ask - hey, if I have to have a few drinks to make it through those situations or to be comfortable, or to have a good time, then maybe I don't really want to do those things anyway. And if I WANT to do those things, then it's so worthwhile to figure out what's causing the anxiety and learn how to do them with joy and a peaceful mind. And good self-care. When I first got to this board, I was a little scared of (and jealous) of people who could moderate and be just fine. But now I feel like, what's the big deal? If I'm at peace with my path, and accept it, then hearing what everyone else does is no threat. And there are an awful lot of lovely Moderators here who DO have some of "what I want" in terms of serenity and health and good lives, and it's not because "they can drink" . I learn alot from them too.

AA has been the main method for achieving and sustaining abstinence since its inception. It has helped millions of people get sober and have good lives. I thank God that it exists. But even in AA, it's a very personal path, and no guarantee for sustained abstinence, if that's what you're after, and deep recovery. And for some it's a perfect fit and a life saver. And that's just fine with me.
Good topic (there's alot of them onthis board today!!)
luv, wonder xx

[wonderworld]

disease of the brain?

fammy;215380 wrote: i am not amngry abourt relapse, its a part of recovery, doesn't have to be, but the truth is it is a part of people's recovery. I'm glad i relapsed after 12 years, i wasnt doing shit to better myself and my situation, now, i am on fire, so motivated, so energized, no more "fear of drinking" my life is soooo good today. I made the ref. to AA cuz i don't know any other program that has helped 2 million people stop drinking, thats all.

exactly! i relate and i agree. i think I misunderstood some of your original post. When you talked about treatment, my mind went directly to AA. and..... sometimes it's hard to read the "tone" of what someone is "saying" in a post or email.

Sounds like you ARE on fire girl! Very inspiring.

and p.s., I made need rehab for my addiction to this board (in case anyone hadn't noticed). Sorry for the soliloquies.

xx wonder

[Cinders]

disease of the brain?

Fammy,

My thoughts, which are pretty worthless. :H

People who are "put off" and cannot deal with the AA meetings and "higher authority" ideas would not go there.

MWO is AN ALTERNATIVE to the mindset.

People come here who would NEVER go to AA. This website is a way for all of us to "join" and embrace whatever we are looking for.

I hate to say this, because it is controversial, but there are many here who have been MODS for A LONG TIME and are doing very well with it. (Us in the waaaayy too far gone for MODS are jealous but love them anyway... )

The problem with the "12 steps" program is there is no room for the people who do not fit that program. MWO and other sites I will not mention here, are a place for all the rest to go to address, face, and finally decide what is the right way to be 'DRUNK FREE.'

Yes, A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF US fall into the we have to be AF category, but on the other hand, many of us do not. However, I love each and every one here. Whether they are on my boat or a different boat.

Does any of this rambling make sense??

AA is not BAD, it is a way, but not the ONLY way. There ARE people who can get back to moderation drinking and there are those who cannot.

I am glad for MWO, AND RJ!!!!, who has given us an option. Many people who cannot mod have joined this site and realized it, gone AF and are happy with their choice. Many who could mod, have done that and are happy.

I am happy for all of US!! No matter what.

Love,
Cindi

[lucky 2.0]

disease of the brain?

AA's role in society - More negative than positive?

This is written by Stanton Peele. I highly suggest reading more about his approach.

AA is really a hot button to me. Probably my #1 hot button.

[Saint Jude]

disease of the brain?

Thanks Lucky. Good info.
I liked the lizard brain too.:thanks:

[lucky 2.0]

disease of the brain?

A.A.: What's Not Good

ok, I promise to stop now. Walking away from the pooter...

[cowgal]

disease of the brain?

what a great thread!

Thanks, Beatle, Hippie, Katsem Fammy and Judie and all the others who I cannot remember their names!:thanks:

It has really got me thinking, wondering, pondering...............we are all here to support
eachother, that is what I fully beleive in my heart.........

I think AA can work for some, can't deal w/ the "failure" of drinking, then having to go and get all "humble" and pick up a "white chip", cannot do it anymore, that is why I am here...........

I actually go to meetings every so often, went to one last night (then actually drank a few beers) If only they new:egad: I would be a failure in their eyes ( I think??)

Anyway, I love (TRULY) everyone at this site, we all support eachother in different ways and that is wonderful!

HUGS and LOVE to everyone today!! Happy Saturday! :h

MA

[Phoenix74]

disease of the brain?

Thanks for that Lucky, I read the Stanton Peele piece avidly.

What worries me about AA is that whilst we congratulate the achievement of sobriety, that some or many members of AA achieve through AA, we do not question often enough the legitimacy of the methods/mind-controlling used to bring about (force?) a sobriety in AA members, with the practices of AA... [Is it that AA can induce (guilt-ify?) sobriety, but as the sober person stays sober and follows the programme, they find their own mental, personal, true sobriety, within the initial forced AF that AA demands...]

Is it like the end justifying the means? So, we say: AA is ok, for some, if it helps one to become sober (but not ok for all of course).
So do we also say: vivisection is ok, if its research leads to a cure for A.I.D.S., or a cure for Cancer?
But: vivisection is not ok, if it's done so that companies can test ladies' cosmetics; or hunting is ok because the countryside is over-populated with foxes and rabbits and hares etc.

When do we stop and look for where the line is drawn?
When do we stop and call a spade a spade, or, double standards double standards?
Or are they really double standards...

Does the end justify the means? Or am I over-criticising AA's methodology and indulging in self-righteousness...

This is a really thought-provoking thread and I'm glad for it :thanks:
Mind you, now I am really brain-wrecking myself :H

[beatle]

disease of the brain?

Phoenix, I agree with the questioning about the legitimacy of AA's methods. I don't even think you can compare it to vivisection though. I think it is clear from what has been revealed on this site that AA is basically a cult that does help some people (very few), as all cults do.

All cults believe their methodology justifies the means. AA believes they help people. That's ok. But that's as far as it should go. And, genereally, my experience is that AA "believers" won't let it drop at that. It is a cult. Maybe a well-meaning one, but it is. As you say, call a spade...

[lushy]

disease of the brain?

How come more people don't seek tx. and think that if by posting here daily, they will stay sober.

Fammy, posting here daily is ONE part of a MULTIFACETED approach. Are you familiar with the MWO program and all it entails? There is nutritional supplementation to help heal "our" brains, hypnotherapy, exercise, and online support. And yes, some people have stayed sober using ONLY the online support found here. You say you need more than a website to keep you sober? Fine, but please don't judge those of us that find this path works for us.