The chicken or the egg?

[beatle]

The chicken or the egg?

pipsqueak;708804 wrote: I had alcohol counselling for a couple of years, it uncovered the fact there was nothing to uncover. I have no deep seated issues, my family have no alcohol issues, I have no reason or excuse to drink, I just do! Wish I could find a reason.

I believe this is a clear indicator of a chemical imbalance (which is probably a part of most alcoholism, but in your case, maybe the ONLY factor).

I know there others on this forum who have said the same thing as you, and expressed the same frustration.

For someone like you, it could be that the only way to deal with the problem is on a medical level -- please go read the threads on Baclofen in the meds forum.

[LozzyJane]

The chicken or the egg?

beatle;708891 wrote: This thread, by far, is the most well-rounded and thoughtful discussion I have seen anywhere on this subject -- on this forum or anywhere else.

Everything, absolutely everything, that has been written so far here, makes sense (to me)...

Genetic pre-disposition combined with situational circumstances, combined with family use, combined with anxiety -- clearly all of these play a role.

I believe genetic pre-disposition and chemical imbalances in the brain (often genetic, although not necessarily so) are the major factors. As Nancy says, many people deal with unhappy childhoods, unhappy relationships, sexual abuse, trauma, etc., without alcohol.

Also, many people use alcohol to deal with their problems without it getting out of control. In other words, trauma and psychological issues alone do not explain why alcohol use gets out of hand.

And I think it is especially important to note that curing the alcohol problem (especially if it is chemically related, which I believe it is in most cases), is usually the FIRST step to going back and dealing with the other problems, which may indeed have been the trigger to let the genetic and chemical factors take over.

In other words, it doesn't really matter which came first, the chicken or the egg. Now that we have become alcoholics, or have a major alcohol problem, whatever the reason, we cannot address our issues if we are not sober.

This is where I think most "specialists" dealing with addiction are dead wrong. It doesn't help to try to deal with our issues if we are drunk most of the time. You can't deal with your issues drunk.

I also don't believe that if you get sober and stay sober by using all your energy to stay that way, that you will be in a position to address your other "underlying" issues. Getting and staying sober for most true alcoholics is a full-time project (as evidenced by many people contributing and benefiting from this site).

Now, how to get sober, and how to stay sober, is another whole can of worms... and I urge everyone to go to the meds forum and read up on Baclofen.

Dear Beatle

Thanks for your response. I too have found this a very insightful discussion. I have always wondered if my childhood was different, or if I had more confidence or had been modelled different coping skills, would I not have a problem with drinking? As I have said before, I come from a long history of alcoholic-dependent folks, and believe there is a genetic factor, but then again, was it the modelling or the anxiety/depression/shyness because of the crap parenting?

I'm very interested in Baclofen. When I read Roberta's book, she spoke about Topamax. Now it seems that Baclofen is the drug of choice, rather than Topamax. Have you had personal experience taking Baclofen? It does seem like a bit of a wonder drug for some people. Just concerned about side-effects - does it have the same side-effects as Topamax? Particularly concerned about the symptoms such as word-finding skills, and the tingling of extremeties.

I would like to hear others' experiences with Baclofen.

Thanks again for your thoughtful comments.

Cheers, LJ

[beatle]

The chicken or the egg?

LJ, there is TONS of information about Bac and the side effects on the meds forum.

There is a separate thread on just the side effects, and another one with all the basic info, including a protocol and warnings (there aren't many).

All your questions will probably be answered there, and if not, just ask -- and they will be answered by someone in the huge group of us on Bac who are charting our progress, mostly in the Consolidated Baclofen Progress thread.

Yes, I am taking Bac. It hasn't solved my alcohol problem entirely yet, but it virtually eliminated my anxiety and my insomnia from the first dose of just 5mg. Even though I still drink, I drink less, almost effortlessly, and I am still not at nearly as high a dose as should be needed to lose all interest in alcohol.

Many people have the side effects you mention -- loss of words and tingling of extremities. I had the tingling for a couple days, but only at night and it wasn't too bad, just a little disturbing. It went away, though, as most side effects seem to for most people.

I started having the loss of words, and a generally worse memory than I had already. I have had this for about 3 weeks now, and it is very disturbing -- I am a communications consultant, a translator, and a teacher, so this is a little more than disturbing. But many others who are ahead of me on the Bac assure me that this, too, will abate fairly soon, so I'm moving on with it.

Despite these side effects, I can say that Bac is worth it. I have been battling anxiety, depression, and insomnia all my life and have tried about every med and herb and supplement out there, legal and illegal. I would call Bac nothing less than a miracle pill for me in those areas.

Now hop over to the meds forum right now and get a taste of what Bac can do for you.

[LozzyJane]

The chicken or the egg?

Thanks Beatle,
You are a great help, and very inspirational.
I appreciate your comments.
LJ

[nancy]

The chicken or the egg?

Hey Lozzy,

Topamax is the drug used in the book My Way Out. But the author, who founded this website, has always been open to any drug that works, along with supplements, nutrition and hypnosis. I have been reading these boards for a long time. Topamax and naltrexone are the only drugs proven to work for alcoholism. And naltrexone has actually had mixed results though there is a lot of research from finland (Sinclair Method) that shows the drug has a lot of promise for harm reduction. Baclofen is gaining ground because a smart doctor from france treated himself with it and wrote a book about it. You can read a lot about that in the meds section.

From everything I have read, the reason My Way Out as outlined in the book does not prove effective is that the cornerstone of the program is actually a drug-- topamax-- that people do not want to take because it's an epilepsy drug or when they do take it the side effects are too bad. I have read some good things about topa at low doses.

Ok, so what about naltrexone? It blocks effects of all opioids so if you were to need emergency care would be an issue. Also, I wonder if people can be trusted to take it. Alcoholics are driven to get high, get an escape and by taking the pill, you won't get it. I still think there's a lot of promise for naltrexone. Read about The Sinclair Method.

Baclofen? It's really been a miracle worker for some people on this forum. In fact in all the time i have been here, it's the next best thing to abstinence. Works for anxiety and the booze problem. Downsides? hmmm. Doctors won't prescribe it and you get horrible, life-threatening withdrawal symptoms if you don't take it. Very risky if you don't have an assured supply. I suggest if you want this to find an addiction specialist if you have some cash to pay privately, keep it off the books.

So should you try meds? I suggest trying the natural route first. Lots of people give up booze without taking drugs that have side effects, that are sometimes really bad. How bad is your problem? I think drugs are the last resort but lifesavers for many.

As for anxiety, lots of natural things you can do for that. Change your outlook, let go of the past, make a concious decsion to live in the present and be good to yourself.

Good luck.

[boswellw]

The chicken or the egg?

It's an interesting question. In my case, I certainly don't have any external factors that I can plainly state "drove me to drink."

I began drinking and binge drinking socially with my mates. This progressed to keeping alcohol at home and drinking every day after work, or running down to the pub after work when I was in England.

I can't say I was nursing any sort of anxiety or depression. While my childhood wasn't a rose-garden, it most certainly wasn't completely destructive. My dad drinks heavily, but never really started till I had come of age (go figure :blush.

I think it was just social factors that got completely out of control with me, much in the same way I began using drugs years ago.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel alcohol is more a cause of anxiety and depression for me than a numbing factor.

I just love alcohol, and that's why I drink. Apparently, I love it far too much...

[beatle]

The chicken or the egg?

Agree, but with some nuances

nancy;709106 wrote: Hey Lozzy,

Topamax is the drug used in the book My Way Out. But the author, who founded this website, has always been open to any drug that works, along with supplements, nutrition and hypnosis. I have been reading these boards for a long time. Topamax and naltrexone are the only drugs proven to work for alcoholism. And naltrexone has actually had mixed results though there is a lot of research from finland (Sinclair Method) that shows the drug has a lot of promise for harm reduction. Baclofen is gaining ground because a smart doctor from france treated himself with it and wrote a book about it. You can read a lot about that in the meds section.

From everything I have read, the reason My Way Out as outlined in the book does not prove effective is that the cornerstone of the program is actually a drug-- topamax-- that people do not want to take because it's an epilepsy drug or when they do take it the side effects are too bad. I have read some good things about topa at low doses.

Ok, so what about naltrexone? It blocks effects of all opioids so if you were to need emergency care would be an issue. Also, I wonder if people can be trusted to take it. Alcoholics are driven to get high, get an escape and by taking the pill, you won't get it. I still think there's a lot of promise for naltrexone. Read about The Sinclair Method.

Baclofen? It's really been a miracle worker for some people on this forum. In fact in all the time i have been here, it's the next best thing to abstinence. Works for anxiety and the booze problem. Downsides? hmmm. Doctors won't prescribe it and you get horrible, life-threatening withdrawal symptoms if you don't take it. Very risky if you don't have an assured supply. I suggest if you want this to find an addiction specialist if you have some cash to pay privately, keep it off the books.

So should you try meds? I suggest trying the natural route first. Lots of people give up booze without taking drugs that have side effects, that are sometimes really bad. How bad is your problem? I think drugs are the last resort but lifesavers for many.

As for anxiety, lots of natural things you can do for that. Change your outlook, let go of the past, make a concious decsion to live in the present and be good to yourself.

Good luck.

I agree with most of what you say, Nancy. I think the most important point you make is that it is always best to try the natural route first. As Nancy says, many people have managed to get sober by just changing their lifestyle, exercising, supplements, therapy -- all, or any combination. If you haven't tried these, that should be the first step.

Baclofen is really for people with major alcohol problems AND anxiety problems, which is where I differ a bit from your opinion Nancy. People with real anxiety problems almost always have chemical imbalances. That's why you find so many alcoholics who had anxiety problems before drinking, and many without any particular trauma or horrible childhoods. I fall into that category, as do many many others. For these people, a medical solution can be the only solution. In my case and many others', BAC cured my anxiety -- nothing short of a miracle.

However, I am still drinking, albeit at reduced levels... this is something clearly related to habit and my own personal issues. BUT, now I am in a position to deal with these issues, and thus deal with my alcohol problem. I couldn't do that while incapacitated by anxiety and alcohol.

I did try everything natural out there. I mean EVERYTHING. I am a strong believer in natural, holistic healing. But I know, there are many people who need some chemical balancing with the aid of drugs. I am one.

So, I urge all newcomers, especially those whose alcohol problem is not ruining their lives yet, to try to solve the problem through holistic healing (see the Holistic Healing forum)... but for all of those who have tried and failed with the "natural" possibilities-- don't be afraid to go further.

Another thing -- just because Bac does a big part of the job, it doesn't mean you will not have do a good portion yourself. Nutrition, exercise, and, when appropriate (which it is for most people) therapy (or some kind of spiritual healing) will all be essential components of the whole healing process, which will include coming to terms with your past.

[nancy]

The chicken or the egg?

Hey Beatle

Yes, I know you tried everything! I think Cinders has also. It's great to see baclofen working where all else failed.