Support vs Enabling

[hippie37]

When does our support for another alcoholic cross the line in enabling them to stay in the same mindset and behaviour? Getting honest with ourselves is vital to our own recovery. So why do we find it so hard to be honest with other people? We have all done it at times, myself included. people pleasing perhaps?

If I hadn't woken up to the harsh realities of the mess I'd made of my life and the way I was 'acting' I would never of gotten anywhere. I would still be the 'dry drunk' with all the same behaviours as before. Nothing would of changed other than I had put down the drink. There's a big difference between being egotistical and trying to tell people what it is they should be doing and sharing honestly your own experiences with another person and how it was for you.

I've manipulated a lot of people here with my humour, charm and intellect; unbeknownst to me of course at that time! I wanted people to like me and not think bad of me so I would feel 'loved' and wanted. I can be a very clingy person at times because of my insecurities! So the thought of offending anyone by saying how I really felt was totally out of the question for me. I'd make posts that didn't maybe go against the grain for fear of reprisal. I'd jump on the bandwagon with the "there there there!" attitude that I saw sometimes, which I now see today as not helpful at all. That kept me in a state of denial because whenever I messed up or had done something 'wrong' I could rely on the 'support' to make me feel better about myself. This in effect meant I took no responsibility for my actions. I needed to hear FACT that I could of killed my daughter when I sat on her as a baby whilst drunk. I needed to hear FACT I had emotionally raped and blackmailed my mother. I needed the hear FACT I was a dry drunk in denial. The list goes on. If I hadn't had these things pointed out to me and accepted them as FACT there was no hope in hell's chance I was going to move forward in my life. I was always going to rely on that "softly softly make it all better!" approach because I didn't have to face the truth. The truth hurts YES but we need to hear it in order to grow.

Real friendships and relationships are when your friend/partner will tell you from the heart you're being an idiot Likewise for any community to grow and not remain stagnant people need to be honest about how they really feel. Give me truth and honesty any day because those are friendships I can build on. I've had too many superficial friends in my life who were nothing more than drinking buddies or party heads. I too was superficial and false because I couldn't be real for the fear I felt in doing so. I couldn't cope with reality so I lived in a fantasy world were I was god and I made all the rules.

Anyway I feel I'm starting to ramble here. Please join the debate and let me know your own reasoning behind "support vs enabling". Thanks in advance.

Love and Light
Phil
xx

[ready2change]

Support vs Enabling

Hi Phil...you speak the truth on so many different levels. I relate to alot of what you say. I no longer participate on these boards like I used to not so much for fear of retribution or wanting people to like me, but I feel similiar to you, that I do not want to be coddled when I fail at my attempts for sobriety.

That does NOT serve ME well. I haven't yet found my "formula" for total sobriety, but it is truly my quest in life, for without sobriety for ME, I in actuality have no life at all. So I read all I can get my hands on and I attend AA and I come to these boards occasionally to pick up some helpful suggestions or insight.

I think honesty is a wonderful thing, but when your on a forum such as this, your never quite sure who/what type of person your dealing with, and my oh my it can get quite nasty sometimes. Mature debates are helpful, spewing name calling not so much.

Thanks for your insight, it is always a pleasure to read.

R2C

[dancelot]

Support vs Enabling

It is a fine line sometimes. Sometimes I'm not sure I'm not just a real ass. I mean no disrespect to anyone by taking a hard line. It always looks different from the outside, sometimes it seems so obvious. But then again, it's not like seeing someone in person, where you can tell when you do need to soft pedal. And some people are just not ready to stop at this moment.

I try to be honest. If someone asks for advice, I assume that's what they really want. I know in my case, if I had been coddled too much, I might still be drinking. I was fortunate to have gotten direct, honest advice when I first came here. Straightforward was what I needed. I can make up plenty of lies/excuses/reasons on my own. I don't need anyone agreeing with me. If I was "trying" or said I was, in my case I know it would be total BS. Like being "almost pregnant". You are or you aren't. You do what's 100% necessary, and make sure every base is covered. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Drinking too much is more serious than say, sitting around watching too much TV or spending too much time on the internet or whatever. It isn't OK. If it was, would any of us be here?

What's real strange to me is, I told one of my closest friends about stopping drinking, and I could tell she didn't believe I was really an alcoholic. And she's someone I can usually count on for an honest answer if I want one.

Sometimes people don't want to see the truth. If they see it in someone else, they might be forced to see it in themselves.

I just last week started going to AA meetings. Part of me is resistant to certain aspects (though overall I honestly enjoy the meetings). But when I look closer, I see it has to do a lot with the honesty thing - and I can see there's still plenty of work ahead, I didn't magically solve the problem on my own. If I want to continue to stay sober, I do need to change my thought patterns, face up and own up to some things I'd rather avoid, and continue to grow and be open to change (some of which will be an uncomfortable, but necessary process). I started some of this on my own, but it really is a continuing, evolving journey.

That's my opinion.

[caysea]

Support vs Enabling

Hi All
Great tread hip. I don't think I will ever be called an enabler. Sometimes for this group I take to hard a stance but that's me. I know what I needed to get al out of my life. People with our problem have to really dig down and be honest. Getting feedback from another if it is not honest is not helpful. Dance I can really see the passion growing in you for the sober life . I think that is what happens when we start to get al out of our lives and want others to have the same freedom.
If we offend members with our answer that is not the intent. It is our way of trying to help because it is what worked for us.



Stay Healthy and Keep Fighting
AF 5-16-08

[dancelot]

Support vs Enabling

Thanks, Caysea - that's exactly what I meant!

[KateH1]

Support vs Enabling

Yes, Phil, this is a great topic, and one that I wish many more members here would get involved in. Like Caysea, I have not been seen as an "enabler". I am a straight shooter. I try to temper my comments with compassion and empathy, but, I do take a hard line against alcohol. If someone comes here to rid their lives of alcohol and it's horrible affects and consequences....the TRUTH is always best. I also firmly believe that the TRUTH is the Only Way Out.

Recently, we have all witnessed the devistating affects of alcohol on the life of just one of our members. I often wonder how many are just never heard from again, because they are no longer with us. We have witnessed other members who have been here for years, and still experiencing loss and even legal problems all due to continuing to drink. It is truly heart breaking. But, none the less, there comes a point when the "kind empty words that tickle ears" are really of no help and most probably harmful, because it keeps the alcoholic drinking. Those words Enable.

Yes, it is a fine line, made more difficult because one cannot observe body language and facial expressions. It is also made more difficult because many cannot see that it is the Alcohol and the Behaviors that we are speaking about and Not the Person! We can like/love the person, yet hate the behavior and the disease.

I am saddened that so many with some Real Sobriety and a lot of great insight have left due in great part to frustration for being called out for their honesty. From time to time, I too have had to take a break from here due to frustration and personal attacks. But I want the new ones that are truly looking for their way out and who are willing to do the work, to have hope, that they too can find their way out!
This only comes from those that have found their way and have stuck to the path of sobriety for many months and years.

Thanks Again Phil.....
Kate

[mario]

Support vs Enabling

Well who am i to judge other people,until i came here my life could be called a failure.I try and show some compassion and understanding to members,I try & post positive posts for me & others who bother to read them., and to give new members a help in trying to understand there is hope.A better way to judge people is to look for the good in them, every alcoholic is used to being judged & criticized, that has never helped anyone get sober.good thread

[hart]

Support vs Enabling

I think, well no I know Joe and I enabled each other's drinking. I have stopped. I won't pick up booze, he knows I don't like it, and when he gets really sloppy drunk I leave the vicinity....

But, I have seen some here that only take a hard line with those still drinking. And THAT will not work, either. If I nag my husband (or anyone else here) about drinking, that will just cause him/them to say the h*ll with you and drink all the more heavily AND not take anything in you might say. I know, when I was drinking I did still HEAR what was said I think about it in sober moments.

I try not to enable, I don't support someone when they are in circular thinking, I just don't think being stern with them will help either. They KNOW IT.

That's one thing I see creating a schism here, there is a difference between accepting behavior and condemning it.

My two cents...good post Hipps :l

[dancelot]

Support vs Enabling

hart;796150 wrote: I think, well no I know Joe and I enabled each other's drinking. I have stopped. I won't pick up booze, he knows I don't like it, and when he gets really sloppy drunk I leave the vicinity....

But, I have seen some here that only take a hard line with those still drinking. And THAT will not work, either. If I nag my husband (or anyone else here) about drinking, that will just cause him/them to say the h*ll with you and drink all the more heavily AND not take anything in you might say. I know, when I was drinking I did still HEAR what was said I think about it in sober moments.

I try not to enable, I don't support someone when they are in circular thinking, I just don't think being stern with them will help either. They KNOW IT.

That's one thing I see creating a schism here, there is a difference between accepting behavior and condemning it.



My two cents...good post Hipps :l

I do see where you're coming from - I only know what worked for me. Interestingly, no one was ever stern with me in my real life. No one spoke the truth to me until I came here. No one here was too stern. They were factual. They related their stories to me clearly. No one ever did this before. My friends, family were always, you're OK, etc, you're not that bad. Even the friends I alienated permanently didn't get through enough to make me quit. I knew why they left. Most just never spoke to me again. If someone had said, "look at yourself, look what you do, you have a serious drinking problem, maybe you should address that" would I have listened? I don't know.

I personally needed a dose of reality. I'm also not the kind of person who will cry on anyone's shoulder. Believe me, I was in awe of the understanding and acceptance I found here. This was also from the same people mentioned. I only came here to control my drinking (and learned I ultimately needed to stop permanently).

There's a difference between telling it like it is and nagging.We always risk alienating someone by telling the truth. But it really isn't helpful to tell someone what they want to here. That's when it becomes enabling. And since you can't see anyone here, you can't necessarily tell if that's the wrong way or wrong thing to say at any given moment. If someone is there in front of me, I can see when not to, and I wouldn't. On an online forum that's impossible.

I assume if someone asks for advice about getting or staying sober, they want to hear it. I would never go into the Mods section telling them what to do or not do. I'm not one, I can't be one, and can't offer them useful advice. And I respect they are on a different path and have a different goal.

Sometimes the truth hurts. It's hurt me many times, and I can choose to look at it or not, and decide if I listen or ignore it. I've found if it raises my hackles at all, I need to look at the why. Usually the why is me.

If something works, I need to consider it. If I see something doesn't work, over and over, it's better off discarded. Anyway, it worked for me, that's all I know, I can only come from that. Everybody is different. And I agree there is a very fine line between both enabling/supporting, and stating facts/condemning. But some people need their asses kicked (me). Some need their hand held. Hand holding is better for some, but would never have worked in my case, and I needed to be sober.

The great thing about MWO is the diversity of views, opinions, methods. There's always something to learn, everyone can find Your Way Out, whatever and however and whenever. And I'm still gonna be the Dick Cheney around here.

Great thread, Hippie, and great posts everyone.

[hippie37]

Support vs Enabling

I'm very inclined to think along the same lines as Kate here. There has been many a time recently where I've juggled with the idea of leaving as I've felt frustrated. I then have to remind myself of patience and tolerance and not to get too grandiose with my own self importance. I was completely humbled today though with some of the posts I read and it just makes me feel more determined to keep sharing my insights here.

It IS a fine line though and I try my best to not let my emotions get involved with what I'm reading in order to respond. MA being a prime example. I try to respond more on my intuition today rather than my feelings. That's not to say I don't empathize with people. I do, but feelings can get in the way of what really needs to be said.

Love and Light
Phil
xx

[Gold]

Support vs Enabling

I feel that as long as the comments are given objectively and with compassion then that is all that can be done really. If people are not honest about the harm that alcohol does then this forum loses its power.

I personally found that the removal of guilt and shame by seeing that others were and had been in a similar situation to me was an extremely important factor for me, and the example of those who are long term sober.

[dancelot]

Support vs Enabling

(bump)