Community.

[hippie37]

According to psychiatrist and author M. Scott Peck, for any group to achieve community in the truest sense, it must undertake a journey that involves four stages: "pseudo-community," where niceness reigns; "chaos," when the emotional skeletons crawl out of the closet; "emptiness," a time of quiet and transition; and finally, true community, marked both by deep honesty and deep caring.

I would like you to think about where you see this community in these four stages according to M. Scott Peck. Also where do you see yourself in that community at a personal level according to your own recovery.

I personally think it's impossible to obtain "true community" within such a large online community as this. Yet I also believe it's possible for people to personally obtain that level within themselves and guide people towards a feeling and sense of "true community".

I've always been quite 'tribal' in my thinking towards both online communities and the 12 step fellowships. I've tried not to think of myself as superior in any way through my own journey of self discovery. I don't always achieve that and I'm glad when people point this out to me. This can lead to the thinking of a hierarchical system within the tribe. But within any tribe there are the wiser and elder members or the shaman that have journeyed and experienced their own pain and suffering to be able to bring that knowledge back to the tribe and heal people.

Now, I'm not suggesting for one minute that I'm a shaman in anyway!!. I just follow a spiritual path through life that incorporates shamanic beliefs.

So for me this community or tribe is always going to be shifting between these four levels of community pending on where we are all at with our own recovery. So for me it's important that the stage I think I'm at within that community reflects truly what my deeds and actions are and not just what I post here.

It would seem to me that this community wants to stay in that place of pseudo-community where niceness reigns. When chaos seems to ensue (as I noticed it did very recently) many want to pull this community back into that place where niceness reigns again rather than allow the transition to happen where it can move forward. This is not a judgment by the way only an observation. I believe this is purely down to the fact that not many of us here has enough experience and is in good spiritual standing to deal with some situations that involve this type of chaos.

So on a personal level I am going to be completely honest and say I'm in a transitional stage between stage 3 and 4 with where I'm at with my own recovery and sense of community.

I feel I've been completely honest with people here about what's happening for me and where I'm at. I've moved away from that feeling of wanting everybody to like me here and in doing so refrained from making posts that keep me in that place of "niceness" I've allowed myself to become vulnerable and take risks and let my skeletons out the closet. So I'm in that place within myself today between "emptiness" and that feeling of a real sense of community (or sense of belonging within the tribe). I'm working towards that through continuing to open myself up to this community and allowing myself to become vulnerable. In doing so I'm gaining real understanding and love from others who are also trying to achieve that same sense of true community.

As a whole though I see this community in the first stage of community where "niceness" reigns. Again not a judgment just an observation and my personal opinion.

ALL comments are accepted and valid within this thread by ANYONE who wishes to comment.

Love and Light
Phil
xx

[startingover]

Community.

Hiya Phil, what an interesting topic!
As you know, my history with this community is fairly lengthy and I have seen in myself the transitions you talk of here. I see my initial stages of recovery trying to find a place within the community, taking lots to heart, worrying about others, worrying about myself and how I am perceived, and almost living and breathing MWO. The chaos for me was the period when I felt kind of burnt out I suppose, not sure what direction I wanted to take and wondering whether I should remain a part of MWO or whether it was detrimental to my recovery. Where I am now is I guess the emptiness stage. Not that I feel empty or anything, just quietly moving forward in my life and enjoying the friendships I have made here but maybe not participating as much in the wider community as I used to.

[hippie37]

Community.

I completely understand where you're coming from Starts and in particular that "emptiness". It is as you say not a negative but very much a positive stage to be at I think, because it's one of reflection in my personal opinion and a stage that is full of new paths opening up before you.

Thanks for your input.

Love and Light
xx

[hiddengoal]

Community.

Great thought provocation. Love this kind of digging into.

I would love to think that the evolution you describe can happen in any place people gather. But it does require some 'sticking with it' and tolerance through the bumps. As in the recent example you reference, we were letting it ride, it was flushing out some of the 'not so nice' mentality behind all of our 'pseudo-names', which perhaps is beneficial, although I think it was more hurtful than necessary.

But when comes the 'quiet time', the reflection? Is that stage possible with so many contributors?

Now, how it evolves is what is telling.

And I ask again, what do we contribute?

Thanks for this Hippie37,
Hiddengoal

[rubywillow]

Community.

Phil, I love that you are SO open, so thought inspiring. Even your criticisms of technique are done in ways that do not feel personal, attacking. I've watched your progress, your transition, and it has been an amazing journey. We both know that some cannot be helped until they are honest with themselves; that the accusations made are pointed back at the accuser. I find myself regretting responding to the taunts that are so far removed from my character and beliefs. 'Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time, and it annoys the pig'. I believe that, though I also believe ANYONE can be helped, with honesty. You have become one of the people here I most look for, someone who seems to really grasp the evolution of our pysche when we are learning to really live, without a crutch. I hope to be able to call you my friend for a long, long time.

BTW: My main criticism from therapist, counselors, has been that I am TOO nice, that I take on too much from everyone around me. If that's true, and I don't know if I believe it, it's a fault that is SO hard for me to change. I CAN'T be mean, I can't hurt anyone. I have to find another way to protect myself, since I know it uses one up too fast.

[bloggy]

Community.

What a fascinating topic!

(BTW, it is Marbella here, I inadvertently changed my username when trying to find out how the blog function worked, but nevermind, I'll go with Bloggy!)

For me I am definitely between stages 2 and 3. I went through the trying to be nice and hoping that people liked me, and getting upset if they did not seem to, used it as an excuse more than once to drink, (although I would have found another perfectly good one to use if I hadn't had that one) and did the usual things, welcoming new people, trying to be helpful, intending to say things to make people feel better etc.

Then came a period that I felt myself changing - I was drawn to more controversial subjects, that at one time I would have avoided and caused controversy more than once myself that led me (along with other things) to practically stop posting.

I continued lurking on a daily basis but more often than not now, I don't log in every day, and if I do and start posting something half way through I get side tracked by something else and in the end don't bother submitting the post.

Indifference? I do not feel indifferent to the people here and their (our) struggles, but I maybe feel indifferent to if I have a role to play here or not.

I do wonder if an online community such as this one can truly go past a stage of chaos? I think probably not, and I think that 'chaotic' posts may put newcomers off and the community/website needs an influx of newcomers to replace others that leave?

Thank you for such an interesting post Phil.

[hippie37]

Community.

I think one of the biggest problems with being "nice" rubes is that it can sometimes have an adverse effect on our self esteem if we're not careful.

A friend of mine whom I've known a long time is starting to see a change in me that she's not used to. I was always the type of guy that said "YES I'll do that for you". As time progressed I became resentful of this person because I felt I was always being taken advantage of. In fact I wasn't at all. She had become so accustomed to me saying "Yes" that she never expected me to say "No". I made that situation for myself for being overly passive and not being assertive enough to say "No" for fear she wouldn't like me anymore. So, she wasn't actually in her mind taking advantage of me. That's how I perceived it because of my resentments towards her. Which in effect where resentments towards me really for not being able to stand up and say "NO". Hence why the low self esteem carried on for me within that friendship. I'm glad to say our friendship today is flourishing nicely because we have a deeper understanding of one another; or more so her of me. That's what happens I think when you just get honest and say how you feel. Friendships and relationships can develop to another level and so it is within a community. I guess you could say I'm flitting between stage 2/stage 3 with my friendship with her at the moment!!!

Love ya rubes.

Love and Light
Phil
xx

[dancelot]

Community.

Interesting topic, Hippie. I was recently in part 3, and kind of felt maybe I didn't have anything to contribute here, and possibly not any more to gain. I came here to get sober, and having never considered the idea of support, it was a very new feeling. This is probably more a reflection of my own personality in real life. I don't ask for help easily, I never have, my life early on taught me that if you are not self reliant, you will not survive.

For me, "niceness" was learned behavior. I wasn't necessarily "mean", but rather aloof is a better word. Niceness is not necessarily falseness. It can be, but part of my learning to get closer to other people and accepting help is accepting it is real. Trust me, if it is BS, my radar will go off. Radar is different than paranoia and suspicion. I was raised by people who believed this, and trust me, it is a very lonely place, even for someone like myself who is more of a loner than a social butterfly.

I believe niceness is a part of respect - and something on an internet forum might come across very different than in the context of real life. When seeing sarcasm in person it is easier to see in what spirit it is meant. We can also edit here - one of the best features of written words. I always reread, usually edit, to make myself clear. I believe in honesty, but I try not to attack anyone personally, and do not want my posts taken that way. Also I try keep in mind that a kind word can go a long way. I remember coming here and being welcomed did make a difference in my coming back. I also remember feeling attacked in chat by someone I did realize was drunk at the time (though that was a reminder that I didn't want to ever be like that, and what it looked and felt like).

On to part 4 - I recently I began attending AA meetings. I felt I needed an extra support, not so removed as a forum like this is. This has to do with maintaining my own sobriety, which is what this is all about. Since I have been learning new life skills, which I knew I lacked but was unaware of the degree, I find I come back to MWO with a new more positive attitude, new respect for all people, and am better able to hopefully help others, as well as myself. I felt a drifting away before, and now feel a new sense of belonging here that I didn't before.

Again, great topic, and great replies everyone!

[KateH1]

Community.

Hippie, as usual, you have come up with a thought provoking topic! One thing I have thought a lot about is the varied cultures and back grounds that we all come from. We are different ages with varied experience, education and life styles. Along with this, we have people in various stages of recovery and yes, those still deep in addiction on this board. We also have different communication styles. I am not saying that one background, or one style is better than another, but they are different. When we add the fact that this form of communication is without facial expression, tone of voice and body lanquage, it stands to reason that, at times, miscomunication and misunderstanding will occur. Wayne Dyer often uses a quote from Emerson, "Do not be too quick to become offended". A wise thought indeed! One that I have worked and continue to work on in my own life!

I also think that "Nice" means different things to different people. I appreciate civility, manners and to try not to intentionally cause harm to another. But, I also appreciate forthrightness. I believe that disagreeing with a point of view, can be nice. I also believe that agreeing and trying to "make nice" all the time can be harmful, both to the one who believes themselves to be "nice" and to the listener who perhaps needs to hear something that they might not want to hear, but might help them to grow, do better or to live a better lives. "Give the man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime."

Just, some of my thoughts on this topic. Thanks for allowing me to share!

[hippie37]

Community.

Dance and Kate thank you both for your contributions which I enjoyed reading. This kind of feedback is something that resonates something within me that wants to just give you guys a hug!! You know that feeling you get when you read something quite profound that lights you up because you can so identify with what's being written? Yeah that feeling!! lol

Love and Light
Phil
xx

[startingover]

Community.

Another thought....
Maybe stage 4 or the true community stages happens in smaller groups? I am finding that there are a few people who I have taken this journey with and who I tend to share my deeper self and vice versa. This probably isnt played out on the boards so much but more in private (pms, telephone etc)
So on a bit more reflection, I believe I am at stage four with a smaller group of people.
This is certainly a thought provoking topic Phil!!

[mario]

Community.

I would say i am at number 3, with a little of number 4. hope to work at that. good insightfull post, phil.

[Cinders]

Community.

The mutually beneficial is community.

Cindi

[Cinders]

Community.

Why can't I say that mutally benefical = community?

It does.

I am a Math Major, not an English Major.

Mutually beneficial = Community.

i.e. No community means that there is nothing to draw on for help and to help. No mutual beneficity.

As a math major, this is too simple.

Cindi

[Guitarista]

Community.

Hi Pinhead,
You raise some good points, but what i like, is the 'one on one' that a few folk's have mentioned here between each other, myself included. It's from these small beginning's, the 'one on one's', that a community form's, slowly spreading outward as it earns, and forms trust. Of course, the bigger it get's, the bigger the challenge.

Thank's for the thread Phil.