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    What Do You Think?

    There is something that's been on my mind, and I'd like some opinions from this wonderful think-tank. If your opinion and posts differs from mine, no harm. Just wanted to hear others.
    When I first began my journey, I had been to a 28 day rehab. Much of what I learned there has played out in my life, and the lives of those who were my family in that time. Because I had a DUI, I also attended driving school, and then I found this place, and I continued to experience some of what I'd learned, and saw it, in my opinon.
    One thing was that when we begin 'using', whether it's AL or drugs', our emotional development stalls. If we are in our teens, when keep that level of emotions until we get clean. The same with the other periods in our lives. Also, if we are hard workers, or slackers, it remains the same; if we are dedicated to certain people, it continues. We don't 'learn', or 'grow up', during our abuse.
    Maybe the easiest way to explain this view is an experience I had in rehab. Some have heard this story, so my apologies to those for repeating. I was late to the game of being a daily drunk. My children were grown, my husband working all the time, and I was a caretaker by nature. This continued in rehab. My first roomate was a young woman named Barbie. She'd been molested from 11 to 15, and started drinking but preferred drugs, moving up to crystal meth. Within days, I was moved. (I also snore!)
    After that, another young woman, with a similar background to Barbie, arrived, and they became fast friends. I was older, always trying to help others as usual, whether they wanted it or not. Reminded me of the old joke about the boy scout who arrived at his meeting, sweating and disheveled. When his Scout Master asked why, the boy said he was helping an old lady across the street. "But why are you sweaty?" asked the leader, to which the boy replied, "Because she REALLY didn't want to go!"
    Soon after, things got weird, fast. I'd been assigned another young pregant roommate, and we were fine. I helped her, loaned her things, gave her a baby shower. But Barbie had started an all out campaign against me. She aligned everyone possible against me, telling them things I'd 'said' about them. I was cold shouldered everywhere. The last straw came when she and a group confronted me on the commons and said I was interferring with her learning because I was writing a letter to Hubs in a class. By then, Hubs and my sister had been for a visit, and she walked past us as much as possible, very dressed up, very flirty. I won't tell you what Hubs and sister said about her! She said in the confrontation Hubs and sister were proabably sleeping together while I was away.
    Last straw, I thought. I had my card out and was heading to call Hubs to pick me up (he'd already called the director and complained I found out) when the counselors intecepted me and called an intervention. They asked me to be silent for 24 hours, as a test. Then I could leave if I wanted. I was still mad, but did it, and it was an epiphany.
    Anyway, I'm here today. Last word I heard, Barbie is on the streets, banned from her husband and children, selling herself for drugs. She was around 15 when she started.
    Her actions were definitely juvenile. When I see people here who have been addicted since their youth, many still have those same, juvenile, defiance. And it changes with each story.
    Sorry to take up so much space. I just wonder what you think. Of course we change in many ways during this time. We go on, our bodies age, we have relationships, we have children. But how much is based on that theory? How much of the way we think is because of that age-gap in our brain and body.
    Again, this is one idea. Please think before you respond, about this. I truly feel if we can figure out some of the aspects, effects addiction has had on us, we can become better, truer to ourselves.
    Ruby
    sigpic
    Never look down on a person unless you are offering them a hand up.
    awprint: RUBY Imagine yourself doing What you love and loving What you do, Being happy From the inside Out, experiencing your Dreams wide awake, Being creative, being Unique, being you - changing things to the way YOU know they can BE - Living the Life you Always imagined.awprint:

    #2
    What Do You Think?

    You're probably not far from the truth, Rubes.

    Considering that we hide from emotions while using, and emotional growth is necessary to mature, your theory certainly makes sense.
    Okay, WHO put a stop payment on my reality check?

    Winning since October 24th, 2013

    Comment


      #3
      What Do You Think?

      We do, Sunny. Can't figure out now if it's that I don't want to be an 'old woman', or the time I spent drinking, not absorbing life.
      sigpic
      Never look down on a person unless you are offering them a hand up.
      awprint: RUBY Imagine yourself doing What you love and loving What you do, Being happy From the inside Out, experiencing your Dreams wide awake, Being creative, being Unique, being you - changing things to the way YOU know they can BE - Living the Life you Always imagined.awprint:

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        #4
        What Do You Think?

        Rubs I think lots of things in life stunt our emotional & spiritual growth and some of us finally get it or we dont, I cant work out why some do and some dont.

        I dont think my drinking days stopped my emotional growth at all, it did cloud a lot of my thinking but I think I was still growing underneath and the growth was what helped me get to the realization I had to quit. There are many people without AL issues that appear to me to be emotional crippled with no sign of this ever changing. Others who I would consider to be alcoholics and are still drinking seem totally oblivious of their emotional state of mind but I feel this is because they havent woken up rather than not growing.

        Im not sure if this helps as Im dont know if I understood the Q so please excuse me if I have gone off on the wrong tangent.
        "In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer ."
        AF - JAN 1st 2010
        NF - May 1996

        Comment


          #5
          What Do You Think?

          No, Chill, that is excellent! Another opinion! I'm always looking, struggling, too.
          sigpic
          Never look down on a person unless you are offering them a hand up.
          awprint: RUBY Imagine yourself doing What you love and loving What you do, Being happy From the inside Out, experiencing your Dreams wide awake, Being creative, being Unique, being you - changing things to the way YOU know they can BE - Living the Life you Always imagined.awprint:

          Comment


            #6
            What Do You Think?

            I think we may be less experienced at handling tough emotions due to our years of running away and hiding in a bottle as opposed to facing them head on. I dont think that is the same thing at all as being still say a teenager emotionally, assuming thats when we started drinking to excess.
            Ethanol is a toxic chemical, why would I drink it?

            Comment


              #7
              What Do You Think?

              Sometimes Id actually like to be able to go back and ask my crazy teenage self for some advice, she might not have had any life experience but there is something wise about that fresh niave view of the world.....
              "In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer ."
              AF - JAN 1st 2010
              NF - May 1996

              Comment


                #8
                What Do You Think?

                You're right Chill. It would be so wonderful if we had known, though, what addictions could do to us. I never quit my preaching to my grands. BTW, with my children, I told them horror stories about how their first experiment with illegal drugs could kill them. It WORKED! But now they have to understand, as adults, what a legal drug, AL, can do. Many stories about that, and I've NOT been a good example.
                sigpic
                Never look down on a person unless you are offering them a hand up.
                awprint: RUBY Imagine yourself doing What you love and loving What you do, Being happy From the inside Out, experiencing your Dreams wide awake, Being creative, being Unique, being you - changing things to the way YOU know they can BE - Living the Life you Always imagined.awprint:

                Comment


                  #9
                  What Do You Think?

                  This is very interesting. For me, the heavy abusive drinking started later in life. I went on a nine year binge after 9/11. Did the alcohol suppress the normal grieving process. Did I miss a critical demark in the cycle of change while drunk throughout my trauma. Is my PTSD a result of alcohol not allowing an emotional process to course itself. I will need to ponder this more.
                  Outside of a dog a book is mans best friend. Inside of a dog its too dark to read

                  Comment


                    #10
                    What Do You Think?

                    Techie - I posted this on another thread, I would think PTSD could easily be attributed to grief & fear being repressed....

                    There are 5 natural emotions GRIEF, ANGER, ENVY, FEAR & LOVE...

                    When you express GRIEF it allows you to get rid of it, to deal with the loss you have experienced. It ok to feel sad, in fact its healthy, if grief is repeatedly repressed it turns into chronic depression which is a very unnatural emotion.

                    ANGER is completely natural and allows us to say "no, thank you". It never has to be damaging to another. If you are allowed to express anger you move through it quick & learn skills of moving on and letting it go. However, continually repressed anger becomes rage again an unnatural emotion which has caused death & wars.

                    ENVY is a natural emotion which makes you try harder & strive until you sucessed. Continually repressed it turns to jealousy which again causes death and war.

                    FEAR- babies are born with two fears, fear of falling and fear of loud noises. All other fear is learned responses or taught behaviour. The purpose of natural fear is to build in a bit of caution which keeps us alive. However, repressed fear becomes panic a completely unnatural & destructive emotion.

                    LOVE expressed & received is the most beautiful emotion of all as long as it is without limitation or condition. Yet conditional love warped by rules and regulations, restrictions, control and manipulation is unnatural and again incredibly destructive. Repressed love turns to possessiveness resulting in more killing and war.
                    "In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer ."
                    AF - JAN 1st 2010
                    NF - May 1996

                    Comment


                      #11
                      What Do You Think?

                      I'm glad that this topic is stirring so many thoughts. I truly believe, the more we know, the more we learn. And this is all teaching me. Thank you, friends.

                      Something else I found today. If it helps, I'm happy. If not, dismiss it as another idea. My goal now is to help everyone understand their problems.

                      Why Falling Off the Wagon Isn't Fatal
                      By Maia Szalavitz

                      The cover of the January 2009 issue of O magazine says it all: "How Did I Let This Happen Again?" A photo of Oprah Winfrey at her current weight of 200 lb. is juxtaposed with an image of her formerly slender self. Inside the magazine, Winfrey writes, "I felt completely defeated. I thought, I give up. I give up. Fat wins."

                      That moment of yielding fully to addiction is what Alan Marlatt, director of the Addictive Behaviors Research Center at the University of Washington, calls the abstinence-violation effect (AVE). "The abstinence-violation effect is a form of black-and-white thinking," says Marlatt. "You blame [your failure] on internal factors that you consider beyond your control."

                      Those factors — whether they are, as in Winfrey's case, a thyroid condition that causes weight gain, or a belief that addiction is a disease that robs you of free will — are what derail thousands of quitters and abstainers from their New Year's resolutions. You could also call it the "f___ it" effect, the idea that once you cheat, you've blown it, so you might as well binge. In traditional 12-step programs for addiction, that line of thinking is encapsulated in the slogan "A drink equals a drunk." But understanding and overcoming AVE, says Marlatt, is crucial to conquering a problem behavior or dependency in the long term. You have to know what to do when you fall off the wagon to learn how to stay on it.

                      While studying cigarette smokers who were trying to quit in the 1970s, Marlatt discovered that people who considered the act of smoking a single cigarette after their quit date to be a complete defeat and evidence of an innate and permanent lack of willpower were much more likely to let a momentary lapse become a full-blown relapse. That was the start of Marlatt's work on AVE. Since then, he has become one of the world's leading authorities on preventing relapse.

                      Most people who try to change problem behaviors — whether it's overeating, overspending or smoking cigarettes — will slip at least once. Whether that slip provokes a return to full-blown addiction depends in large part on how the person regards the misstep. "People with a strong abstinence-violation effect relapse much more quickly," says Marlatt. A single slip solidifies their sense that they are a failure and cannot quit, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

                      So what should you do instead? For starters, don't berate yourself for being weak. Instead, tell yourself, "I made a mistake. What can I do differently next time? How can I learn from this?" says Marlatt. "This happens to almost everybody. It's not just you."

                      One of the most common mistakes addicts make is focusing on whether they are strong enough to change rather than on specific methods of coping. "It's like trying to ride a bike," says Marlatt. "You make mistakes and learn, and you don't give up if you don't immediately find your balance." If the bicycle is missing a wheel or is otherwise broken, then it requires fixing — simply willing it to work is not going to help you ride.

                      Also, says Marlatt, "most people think that if they have urges or cravings, there's something wrong, that you're not supposed to have them." In fact, they are a normal part of habitual behavior. "Notice and accept them," he says, and be mindful of when and why they occur. Most relapses happen when people are stressed or experience negative emotions, or are exposed to people, places or circumstances that are associated with addictive behavior — old drinking buddies, for instance, or the morning cup of coffee that was always paired with a cigarette. These triggers can't always be avoided, so they need to be negotiated carefully.

                      Marlatt teaches a technique called "urge surfing" as a way to cope. "The urge is like a wave," he says. "It goes up and down. You don't try to get rid of it, but accept it and let it pass." People tend to think that urges will escalate infinitely if they don't yield to them — but in fact, like a wave, they rise to a peak and then fall. That is, even if you don't give in, the urge dissipates.

                      Indeed, because of the way the brain is wired, each time an addict lets an urge pass without engaging in the unwanted behavior, it weakens the neural connections that underlie the desire; each time he or she rewards the craving with the bad habit, the brain pathways, and the addiction, are strengthened. It helps for people to remind themselves that if they can resist an addictive urge once, it will become easier and easier to do it again in the future.

                      Marlatt uses the acronym SOBER to instruct patients on how to deal with a slip or fight off the urge to do so. The S stands for stop: pause for a moment and consider what you are doing. O means observe: think about what you are sensing, feeling and experiencing, and what events led to the situation. B is for breathe: take a few deep breaths. Then, expand your awareness and remind yourself of what will happen if you keep repeating the unwanted behavior and how you will feel afterward. R stands for respond mindfully: remember that you have a choice, that you are not powerless, and that you don't have to continue the undesired behavior.

                      "Otherwise, you are on autopilot," says Marlatt. "The urge is driving you. So take a breathing space."
                      sigpic
                      Never look down on a person unless you are offering them a hand up.
                      awprint: RUBY Imagine yourself doing What you love and loving What you do, Being happy From the inside Out, experiencing your Dreams wide awake, Being creative, being Unique, being you - changing things to the way YOU know they can BE - Living the Life you Always imagined.awprint:

                      Comment


                        #12
                        What Do You Think?

                        Ruby:

                        I'm not sure there is a one-to-one relationship between a person's stunted maturity growth and their addictions. Although I think one contributes to the other, as others have pointed out in this thread, there can be multiple factors influencing a person's inability to reach a higher level of maturity. In the example you gave, it seems to me that Barbie harbored jealousy and resentment towards you, perhaps because you reminded her of someone that she had in her life, or resented the fact that she never had someone like you in her life (i.e. a nurturer).

                        In a nutshell, I agree that the addictive behavior can be a contributing factor, I don't think it's always the only factor....

                        This is an interesting topic... thanks for starting the thread.
                        John
                        AF since 7/13/2010

                        Comment


                          #13
                          What Do You Think?

                          Very interesting topic and I must say that I agree with so many here. I have done a lot of studying on this topic and also in therapy. Trauma (true trauma) can both stunt emotional and spiritual growth as well as leading one to addiction. Alcohol definitely leads to neither "feeling" nor "leading" our lives in a balanced and healthy way as we excape our feelings by "zoning out" rather than "working through" or learning to cope in a healthy way. I also think that there is another form of escaping our own lives and that is through "Fixing and Saving Others". It is one thing to reach out a helping hand or empathising and sharing experience, but it is entirely another when we are constantly trying to fix everyone else while we ourselves remain broken.

                          I believe that "True Recovery" only begins with leading a life free from AL or drugs. But, in order to live a happy and fulfilled sober life, we must work and becoming whole both spiritually and emotionally. For me, learning to be STILL and by myself without feeling lonely was a huge step! Recognizing that I can certainly assist others and offer some thoughts in regards to sober living, life etc is another. But I also realize that it is not up to me to save anyone else. That is simply not in my power, nor anyone else's power.

                          xo Kate
                          A Dream is a Wish Your Heart Makes~Cinderella

                          AF 12/6/2007

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                            #14
                            What Do You Think?

                            Thank you, Kate. The 'not saving' is a real hurdle for me. I learned early to be a nurturer, and now find it leads to being a matyr. I don't want to end on a stake.
                            sigpic
                            Never look down on a person unless you are offering them a hand up.
                            awprint: RUBY Imagine yourself doing What you love and loving What you do, Being happy From the inside Out, experiencing your Dreams wide awake, Being creative, being Unique, being you - changing things to the way YOU know they can BE - Living the Life you Always imagined.awprint:

                            Comment


                              #15
                              What Do You Think?

                              rubywillow;925523 wrote: Thank you, Kate. The 'not saving' is a real hurdle for me. I learned early to be a nurturer, and now find it leads to being a matyr. I don't want to end on a stake.
                              Some are just caregivers, its their nature. It is not a fundemental flaw. It is a virtue. That is who you are Ruby, don't change!!!
                              Outside of a dog a book is mans best friend. Inside of a dog its too dark to read

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