Orange Papers

[lucky 2.0]

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[Guest]

Orange Papers

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[pansy]

Orange Papers

Read the research

To unregistered - all I can say is read the research upon which this program is based. Seven Weeks to Sobriety is another very well researched program that also has very high success rates and similarly incorporates amino acid and nutritional therapies. Both MWO and the Seven Weeks program have much higher success rates than AA. If you failed at THIS program, at least it was because probably you were not implementing some aspect as faithfully as you could have done. Failure in this program is not due to a base pyschological defect. Many, if not most, individuals who commit to the major components find that they have quite dramatic success in terms of reducing their alcohol consumption. Note - the goal of this program is not necessarily abstinence, as it most definitely is in AA. It worked for me!

And - in terms of your questions - many do not even address the success of the program. Maybe people leave because they have done so well they no longer need daily support (there are lots of us). Busy lives get in the way and I can only check in with my friends sporadically. Regarding the Topamax, I did not use it to do my first 60 days of abstinence. I am not taking it now. Regarding moderation, I am very happy with my current level of alcohol consumption, which is less than half what it was last year at this time. Go ahead - you can say it - gee if you had really good success you must not really have had a drinking problem, like I "unregistered" do. Two bottles of wine a night for 10 years is a problem sweetie ... I now have many days that are alcohol free and when I do drink, I rarely come close to matching my prior levels of consumption.

Wishing you better success here, or somewhere else
Pansy

Hi quack quack
miss you

[Guest]

Orange Papers

any program

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[happycamper68]

Orange Papers

We have no stats here it is true, maybe we should talk to RJ about that.

About the NY trip, I was there, and I thought we moderated quite well, so unregistered why are you tainting our nice trip when you weren't even there? That's not very nice. Quite gossippy.

[C]

Orange Papers

Well...funny I would happen onto this one. I say this:

Lucky: Way to go Lucky !!!!! Bold but the only way to transform minds. Excellent. Excellent.

Pansy: I am very happy for you & hope all is well in other parts of your life as well!

Unregistered: Who are you?? Obviously you have been around awhile.

Happy: Love you & send love thoughts to you & Sophie.. I am not into MWO as my solution any more. I told Luck. Luv, C

[C]

Orange Papers

PS : But I think MWO is fabulous ! And obviously very EFFECTIVE for many. Obvioiusly. That is where the stats can come in. ~C

[MonaCat]

Orange Papers

Hi Lucky, thanks honey for the links. Very, very interesting and I appreciate being enlightened. AA is so scary to me, as I don't drink Kool-Aid.
Hey unregistered, please, don't rain on our parade. We are bonded and happy here, and don't need your negative energy.Your thoughts are not constructive to our recovery. No one is holding a gun to our heads to be here. We happen to love it. For me it's been a life saver.
Lucky, I miss you.
Hugs,
Mona Cat

[pansy]

Orange Papers

????

Dear Unregistered,

I am sorry that I offended you. I certainly did not mean to throw mud at you. There IS research out there on this type of program. Generally, if you want to look at research you need to go and find it. Most of the good work is not going to be found on the web - it is in journal articles in libraries.

As far as gathering statistics on this particular web site - that would be a great idea. Let's think about that as researchers. How would you determine whether or not the people actually READ the book, in the first place - fidelity to treatment is paramount in good research. I have met many people on here who are just passing through and after 3 weeks on chat they are still asking - what is L-glutamine? To me, that is indicative of a person who is NOT following protocol. They have not even read the damn book. Apparently, you have been here for many months ... you even know how much people drank in New York (were you there?). I had a great time and am not embarrassed about anything! I guess you have some deep dark secrets about behaviors that should not be discussed in polite company. I was not party to anything like that and saw nothing like that.

I am sure after more careful perusal of the postings, you will find many posts that are general calls for information. That is not bad - that is what the boards are for - yet one would have a really hard time making an argument that all 1,000 of the members actually WORK the program or have even read the blasted book. In many cases, a lot of chat time is devoted to cajoling people into following the program - buy the book, use the supplements. Often the response is "what book?" They don't work the program faithfully and they get what they put into it. Many individuals try to abstain for a week (not a month, as is recommended) and announce that they are going to moderate. Gee, wonder why they do not have great success. UH, maybe because they made a choice to NOT follow the program. BTW - there are lots of posts from people who report that same personal error in judgment on the boards. I know I tried to moderate too soon, at first. Therefore, my early slips were not program related - they were related to my hard head. Also, one aspect of the program is, even in moderation, to engage in extended periods of abstinence. So, how will you measure that? Before you can make ANY assertions regarding the number of registered users and progam success, you first have to determine how many of those registered users are actually working the program.

Unregistered, your argument is specious. So much failure here .... you cannot quantify something if you cannot measure it. Also, that is like using a huge sample (n = 1000) and evaluating the program's effectiveness without ANY care to determining who is following protocol. So, you include 1000 people in your sample and, maybe, 500 of them really do not participate or follow the program. Possibly MANY of the registered members are not following protocol, many register for one day and are gone. First you would need to exclude them from the sample - and identify those individuals who are really following the protocol to SOME degree - not just coming on and getting loads of emotional support only to go off and get blasted again. I am sure that you would be upset if you found that AA's numbers are so low because they included people who skulked into a meeting once and never came back. Maybe, unregistered, you should read some of those AA studies to determine how they selected their sample - I don't have the time. However, I would be very interested in what you report.

Further you state that many people are still very unhappy with their lives, even though they have decreased their alcohol consumption and things are much better in that regard. So, are you saying that you are establishing a causal relationship between the amount of alcohol consumed and how happy people are? Based on your assertion, individuals who drink nothing should be very happy and the research shows that this is not so. Many people drink to self-medicate and if they don't deal with the underlying issues as they decrease their drinking, one would NOT expect to see total turn arounds in mood and general happiness. I don't subscribe to the belief that drinking excessively has its genesis in character flaws, however that does not mean that I am unaware of the potent contributors depression and anxiety may have in excess consumption. Those are largely medical issues that I am not going to address because I am not a physician. The reasons a person might self-medicate indicate underlying causes of unhappiness and, of course, must be dealt with. So, how do you propose to tease out the contributions of depression and anxiety and how they covary with increased or decreased alcohol consumption? Again, a very important question to deal with - if you want stats.


Perhaps you thought that I was throwing mud when I said that if you had failed (or you think you have failed) using this program that it is because you might not have "worked" the program with as much commitment as you could have. I could see how even the tiniest slip might concern someone if they know in their heart that abstinence is the only way for them. If you are in that boat, then I apologize. This is a program and it needs to be worked. That being said, I have no problem with anyone who chooses a different path. Personally, I would rather blame myself for any slips I make, as opposed to chalking it up to some sort of unremediable personality disorder or generalized character weakness.

To me, blaming my chosen behavior on some ill-defined character weakness is much more of a cop out. I am one hundred percent responsible for what I do and I accept responsibility if I slip up. That way, I am not constantly begging people to forgive me due to hypothesized psychiatric difficulties that prevent me from putting down a drink and serve as an excuse for acting in a totally irresponsible self-destructive fashion. I do know people who engage in wildly inappropriate behavior and then beg forgiveness - over and over and over and over and over and over - again. YAWN. To that end, you are right. A person as such should find another program if this one is not working for them.

Just my two cents. I always wish everyone the best on WHATEVER program they are working. I wish you the best of success in whatever you do.
Pansy

[tawnyfrog]

Orange Papers

I wanna be a stat!

Here 9 months. Book, supps, excercise and daily visit to the Board. Consistently moderate drinker now. One major "slip" (read sabotage) back in April.

Very, VERY happy.

Tawny

[pansy]

Orange Papers

dearest tawny

Hello old friend,

I am not sure if you are a stat, a piece of data (dah-tuh, day-tuh), or a datum. My latin is sucking these days! So glad to hear you are doing well!

Hugs,
Pansy

[lucky 2.0]

Orange Papers

Unregistered,

The point of my post was not so much about the success or failure rate of any program. If you had gone to the Orange Papers link provided, or watched the video, you would have seen the material had everything to do with:

* The Disease Model AA is based upon- what other "disease" do we have that is still treated the same way it was in 1935 when AA was invented?

* The ACLU- the ACLU is not involved in cases against other programs for the infringement of civil liberties. AA is a religion. Our courts cannot mandate religious attendance, as it violates our Constitution.

I thought the majority of us were here because we did not support the 12 step model. Therefore, I thought the information would be interesting. I am sorry you could not take it as educational as intended but needed to lash out.

Good luck to you-
Lucky

I agree your comment about the New York trip, which I did not attend, is quite interesting and very telling.

[fsophiah]

Orange Papers

Pansy, I like what you are saying, and I hate to feed the general fractiousness that sometimes appears on these boards. However, I think we all need to remember that this door is wide open to anyone, all over the world. We can't expect that we are going to find total harmony here. We don't have a sponsor system, as they do in AA, so everyone here is an independent agent. I think we like it that way. We are self-regulating. My husband got sober in AA, and he doesn't go to meetings anymore. That's fine. It got him sober. I want to be able to drink moderately. This program has given me that option.

We are a young program. We are still growing and forming. I think that's part of what is exciting. We are pioneers. I do think it's time for someone to do a statistical study on us, just for our own self-evaluation. Someone out there could do that, and I think RJ would welcome the input. We are a loose confederacy. I'm not always comfortable with what some people call "moderate," and I believe strongly that for success, one has to at least try all aspects of the program, including 30 day of abstinance. Not everyone feels that way, and some will give you a very strenuous argument about that. We disagree. That's okay.

One of the things I like best is knowing that there is always a way to get back on track. I'm off topa now, but I can go back if I need to. I have done my 30 days of abstinance, so I know I can abstain if I am drifting into old habits. For me, this program fits like my best jeans (which I can get into now since I lost 10 pounds.)

So there.

[wwbarb]

Orange Papers

[quote=lucky]Unregistered, Our courts cannot mandate religious attendance, as it violates our Constitution.
Iquote]

This is one of our most basic freedoms. I know that AA has helped many people. But I can not see being mandated by a court to have to attend a meeting where someone is going to tell me that I have to believe I am powerless because I am not and never will believe I am. If I choose to believe in a Higher Power, I will be blessed, but that will be my decision.

Here is what I know. I do have the power to make my own decisions. I will not abdicate that responsibility by rendering myself "powerless". That doesn't mean I can't appeal to a higher power, but He has given me free will, and with that has come power.

As far as stats, it is impossible in this forum to develop them, I think. Everyone has their own agenda. I have seen people come on this site, demand help, and then disappear. My guess is that they have never read the book or done any of the research, or have been been just plain desperate - we have all been there. I have never met so many loving, caring people in my life. Every time I have reached out, someone has been there. I also try and help when I can. Even when I am just lurking, I get a message from someone just reaching out, to make sure I'm okay. I hope I get back a fraction of what I get.

So as far as declaring myself a stat, I am drinking less, I now have more tools to work with, I have a support group, and I have hope. Count me as a plus.

:thanks:

[Fan]

Orange Papers

Whatever "WORKS" for YOU = 100%

Whatever "DOESN'T WORK" for YOU = 0%



Just thought I'd throw some stats out there to consider.