Orange Papers

[pansy]

Orange Papers

last response - busy busy

Sorry if anyone thought my comments were fractious. My point was to explain just how difficult it would be to do a statistical analysis of the program effectiveness as measured by the web. For those of you who are not aware of how this type of research is done, let me tell you it costs TONS of money. Statisticians usually bill out at more than 150 an hour. To undertake something like that would cost thousands and thousands of dollars. It takes lots of time to create definitions - for instance, what is successful. How does one create the gradients for success? Again, more time - careful thought and money. Generally, people don't just "DO" a study - they do it for a reason. They want their doctorate, another publication, or someone is willing to pay them a lot of money. I am wondering who is supposed to come in and do this just cause they feel like it?

An interesting finding. In looking at the member list I counted out the first 90 members and then counted their posts. 65 of them (72%) have less then 3 postings, with 45 (50%) never posting at all. If that pattern continued, then it would be reasonable to assume that MOST individuals who join do not participate in the program and leave, which would not constitute failure of the program. Fifty percent never post. So, using the figure of 1000 as the bank of individuals who have fully implemented the program, found it sucked, and left is totally invalid. Many do just blow through ... and move on to something else.

I have no issues with anyone who has found that AA works for them. That is great and I am very happy for their success. I, too, am uncomfortable with their lack of incorporating current science and adhering to the same model as in decades past. The founder, Bill W ?, found that niacinimide was very helpful and I think tried to get the early group to include that as a help to members. He was ignored. The model was set and not to change. I do know that I have felt very stifled at AA meetings - I don't like being therapized by amateurs.Indeed, I was paying beaucoup dollars to a therapist twice a week to help me not hate myself and then going to AA to find out about all my personality defects. Guess which one helped!

Peace to all,
Pansy

[Fan]

Orange Papers

Unregistered wrote: A lot of negative stats could be given on this program as well. How many come and stay? How many actually stay for any length of time? How many actually become moderate drinkers? How many struggle with the topamax and how many actually use their hpno CD's? Where are the stats?

All programs in this area have huge failure rates...this one included.

Well I agree with Pansy -- for all the reasons she has so eloquently presented -- that there is really no reasonable, factual, or statistical basis for asserting such a conclusion.

There are too many variables, too much is "unkown" -- and as others have pointed out -- not an abundance of history or available data to draw from.

If a "program" or "approach" works for somebody -- there is no real purpose in trashing it. If it doesn't work for a person -- they should move on and try something else.

Not that I don't have my views and opinions on certain programs and approaches and how they did or didn't work for me .... But there are even different "approaches" within different "programs" ... and some things simply click for some people that just don't work for others.

There are times that I do have a bitterness toward certain programs or therapies -- the time and tons of money spent trying hard to find answers -- to find something that would get me back on a productive, happier path. But the bitterness is just as easily turned inward -- and really, in the end -- today -- moving forward from where I am now -- such bitterness or anger or whatever... just doesn't seem to serve any good purpose.

[happycamper68]

Orange Papers

I can say in all honesty that I have a looong way to go, but that finding this site in May, making the friends I have made that have been so supportive, reading the boards, utilizing the topa that I am so fortunate to be prescribed that has pretty much cut my drinking in half and eliminated my blackouts & my hangovers is a huge improvement. I can also say that I will never go to AA and that's my choice. I haven't chosen abstinence and if I choose to down the road I still won't go there but I don't begrudge anyone who does. I came to this site as an alternative to AA. That's my stat status right now.

If I hadn't found this place before my daughter's autism diagnosis I would be drinking more than I had been before, I am sure of it. My depression is deep over my daughter's condition and I need to address that more than I have, but again, without this place and without the head start I got here I would be the worst mother in the world right now. I can come here when I need to, it's a safe haven, and I know someone will always have something wonderful and supportive to say to me when I am down, and vice versa. People genuinely care about me and my child and I care deeply about many people on this site. The nastiness I am hearing about is fleeting and intermittent thank goodness.

[MonaCat]

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Lucky,

"Well Done" on your post. My sentiments exactly.

I for one appreciate any opportunity to be educated, and found the Orange Papers fascinating.

MWO is in it's infant stages, and I think we are on the ground floor of something big.
In the meantime, it's been a life saver for me, and has changed my life.
Plus, I have connected with some awesome people, in my time of need.

[C]

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Well, taking a personal assessment ... I have to say that I am doing better than before I came to MWO. I am not where I want to be and that is certainly no fault of MWO. I have not done my abstinence 30 days. I am a total chicken about pain and discomfort at this point in my life. Or whatever excuse I rationalize and put forth, it is mine not MWO's. I don't think I can consider myself a stat, because I do not consdier myself a success. But if I were to give it a grade or evaluation, it would be on the plus side, with the quote " I am better off now, than before."

My only problems have been the conflicts and craziness on the boards, but I would think that is normal for a cyberspace community open to the world.

My personal development & growth is very tightly linked to my spiritual walk and the motivation I gain there. And I need to focus on that quite a bit.

Love to my friends, ~Chrysa

[nans]

Orange Papers

feel great!!

I know for a fact that the program does work. You have to tweak it to fit your needs. I started the program July 2005. I was in a desperate need of help, drinking to drown out the world and because I craved the alcohol.

Today I drink in moderation and am so happy to have that part of my life in control. i drank heavy for about 10 yrs and was looking for something to help me when I found the MWO book online and downloaded it immediately. I was on a HIGH after reading it. The program was what I was looking for, as you know when you crave, you can't controll it by yourself.

Also, when you have your drinking in control, you tend to not need the support as much.....I have not been on this web-site since early spring......my.. how it has grown. When I started it was around 58 members.

I still get chills ........knowing there is help, in the privacy of your own home!!!!

I could keep going on and on......

[fsophiah]

Orange Papers

Wow. July 2005. You really are a poster child. Congratulations! I agree that this is a program that can be tweaked, and I think that's what makes it more appealing than AA. I also think that it's important for us all to remember that it took a long time for us to get in trouble with alcohol and getting out, like any change, takes commitment, but this is a program that, for me, makes it possible. I also think it's important to distinguish our own problems from what the program offers. It's not therapy. It's not a panacea. Sometimes I feel that no matter what I say, someone is going to disagree, sometimes in a rather unpleasant way. Still, I try to keep my eyes on the prize. RJ gave us possibilities that we didn't have before. I keep getting drawn back to these boards, just to enter the conversation.

[bestlifeldms]

Orange Papers

Thank you Lucky!

After reading your post yesterday you gave me so much to think about last evening. I don't think that there is any program that is a "One Size Fits All". I cannot agree with the "powerless" issue of AA and since it is a Christian based organization, it cannot serve all people. As for Unregistered, I am sure that there are many people who are not successful with this program, just as there are others who do not succeed with AA, with Rehabs or any of the thousands of other dependency programs that exist.

The very fact that MWO empowers the individual to take charge of their own life and way in which they will approach the abstinence from or moderate consumption of alcohol is much more appealing to me than those programs that rob individuals of thier dignity and self respect with their "Rock Bottom" approach.

I found this website in mid may and must admit that I have been visiting less lately than I was during the summer and early fall. But the reason isn't because I am failing! Instead of going home from work and pouring my self a "STIFF ONE" before doing anything else, I change and walk to the end of my country road with my dog Sadie. I have started to work on catching up the much needed photo albums of our 5 kids from their high school years. I have sewing projects that I have planned for this winter. I have a closet remodel - the lumber is already pre-cut, paint bought and my husband and boys just can't wait to help! LOL! The list is long! And my point is that I assume, many people are like me. We begin to replace our old drinking patterns with new healthier patterns. We get back into the swing of things!

Our time on the MWO website is less because we are busier. We also develop personal friendships with indviduals we meet here. We e-mail directly, make phone calls and even visit one another, rather than chat as much. We have our lives back.

And, after all, isn't that what the ultimate goal is? Thanks Lucky! Great stuff!

[happycamper68]

Orange Papers

Yes Lucky,
I forgot to thank you earlier.
Best is right, I am also visiting less because I am busier doing other things, over the summer I had a leave of absence to take care of my daughter which is now over so now I am back to work and trying to juggle the stuff I had the luxury of doing during the day while chatting while Sophie was having her home therapy. Now that's all over now! I am so BUSY!!! I went to bed at 7pm last night I was so tired!

[lucky 2.0]

Orange Papers

I am glad to see the majority of you took my post for what it was- information only.

And for any who want to go to a 12 step program- knock yourself out and good luck with that.

[Noelle]

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Well, unregistered, I'm new here and if you are trying to scare me, you failed!

[Guest]

Orange Papers

...

.

[tawnyfrog]

Orange Papers

I haven't had a hangover in 9 months.

That's a fact.

[TracyA]

Orange Papers

For a number of years, there was *nothing* but AA in the US. Most of the world had clued in and the recovery industry of the US was a laughing stock worldwide, but that is gradually changing. I remember attending an addiction school seminar for work. A doctor fairly begged an AA audience not to demonize medical approaches to alcoholism. He was talking about anti-depressants, which were decried quite openly in AA. Last October, I listened to a well-known AA speaker denigrate people who use anti-depressants when they should be seeking God. That's frickin' insanity.

I know Canada, for one, no longer focuses on abstinence as the goal (it's often unrealistic) but on reducing damage.

Coerced attendance doesn't work for attendees and it no longer works for AA either. Many of our local meetings are full of frightening people - they are scary places to be. My last experience in our Alano club was disturbing enough that I won't go back. Compared to 15 years ago, I see many fewer mainstream, average Joe types in AA meetings, and it seems to me that the percentage of women in AA meetings has dropped (not that it ever was very high). Donations to world services are way down - AA is shrinking - or shall we say "becoming right sized." :H

I applaud MWO - indeed, all the alternatives. DIVERSITY IS GOOD! Alternatives were too long in coming, and if they prove to be even one percent more effective than no recovery program at all, they have a higher success rate than AA. I understand where the anger towards AA comes from. I don't understand where the need to defend AA comes from. Just going by the very basics of AA principles, it should be very open to critique.

The idea that there is a physiological wire-crossing in the brain (the reward center) of heavy drinkers makes much more sense to me than AA's rather bizarre idea of spiritual disease. I think taking a nutritional/holistic approach makes one heck of a lot more sense.

Tracy

[Waves 2]

Orange Papers

babe in arms

I am still a babe in arms as far as this site goes but I am so much healthier than at any other time in the last seven years. Who knows how it will go for me? But at the least I am inspired to try my hardest to gain control, with the support of many people on here who celebrate even my smallest successes. And at the most I hope to get a "Tawnystyle" way of life.

How can trying not be a good thing? There is no magical cure - if only there was!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!! I'd become a witch! A good one of course!

Thanks for this discussion, everyone, it's good to think.

Love Waves