WAKE UP PEOPLE!

[sapphire1]

WAKE UP PEOPLE!

TeddyC;996272 wrote: Wasn't finished with my other post, but pressed something and it posted for me. I'll get used to it in time.

The recovery process is unique and individual to each sufferer and because shame and stigma is part of this disease, it would be obvious that someone would hide their using in order to not cause the attention of the "Wake Up" mentality. The members of this site have accummulated experiences which they lovingly share and people prop them up at the appropriate times, with the appropriate words of encouragement. There is only a 20% rate of success in in house treatment, it's a difficult disease to combat. However, there maybe just one who will successfully respond to compassion, rather than to be told to shape up!

Off to do more reading

Welcome Teddy:welcome:, hope to see you around often

[fennel]

WAKE UP PEOPLE!

sapphire1;996242 wrote: My last post was not in reply to this thread in particular, moreover an observation about how we deal with each other when there are differences of opinions. Personally I am not in favour of the Tough love approach on a public forum such as this. My reasons for this idea is that posts from desperate people show a limited amount of information about the person seeking help. There may be cultural, socio-economic, educational differences that are not explained and therefore not taken into account on a single-dimensional (the written word) communication such as this site. We may not be getting an accurate picture of what a person is or isnt doing to help themselves. How do we know what their plan is, and indeed if they do have one, who can judge if it is an adequate one or not. We are not in the position to make judgements about how serious a person really is about their sobriety...because we are simply not them. Tread lightly guys, the written word is a very powerful and sometimes very destructive tool. I feel no frustration whatsoever about people posting either repeatedly drunk, or posting that they are drinking and "slipping".....it is not for me to get annoyed about how they go about their business. I have my own agenda for my own recovery, they have theirs. It does not sway me from my course by reading of another trying to find their way out.......even if it doesnt line up with my own methods. I chose who to engage in discussion and I leave the rest. It should be the perogative of everyone here to do the same. I personally have a tough love counsellor. That works for me and I sought him out. He doesnt gel with everyone and thats okay........I have a friend that is terrified by him and would not do well withthat sort of in your face, confrontational style....she responds really well to gentle, loving support......her counsellor says things like "darling you are doing a great job, dont be too hard on yourself" For her that doesnt mean, dont grow or dont try different strategies, it just wraps her up in the comfort that she needs so that she can keep trying, and she does. LIfe is complicated, people are complicated, one size doesnt fit all. We come from so many different walks of life, we all have experiences that shape us and also different ways of responding to our environment. Lets celebrate those differences.

Thanks for the excellent post, sapphire.

[KateH1]

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Saffire, I agree with much of your post. But, I will say this, we all respond to different thoughts and methods. Papmom put it very well in her experience. It was the comment that was least expected and not soft at all that rang a bell.

Though many arrive here at mwo very broken and some quite fragile, we are first and formost a sight for people with alcohol problems. We are not a mental health site. We cannot assume that we must all speak in only one way as to "Protect" those that may not respond well to those that are more up front.

No one here is trying to repaint the walls. In fact, this thread is an excellent example of how MWO functioned for a very long time. It is only within the past year or so that some have insisted that their ideas on "What Works" are the only acceptable ideas. Oddly enough, we had great success here with long term sobriety before the soft approach was thought to be the only acceptable way here. I would also ask if anyone else has noticed that all too often the soft approach just exacerbates the problem?

[Miss Behaving]

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KateH1;996299 wrote:
Though many arrive here at mwo very broken and some quite fragile, we are first and formost a sight for people with alcohol problems. We are not a mental health site. We cannot assume that we must all speak in only one way as to "Protect" those that may not respond well to those that are more up front.

Kate, do you think that alcoholism is not a mental health disorder? (Genuine question)

[KateH1]

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Good Question, Miss Behaving.....I am sure that we can have quite a discussion on this one! Actually, I believe that to one extent or another, there are definitely mental and emotional aspects to this disease. IMO this is one of the reasons that I am a firm believer that we must work very hard to work on these aspects during recovery. Thus, though drugs and/or supplements might help to curb the cravings, we still have to work on the underlying causes of why we drink.

Perhaps I was not clear when making my point earlier. What I meant to do was to acknowlege that some of us might arrive here, fragile and broken, but that to assume there is only one acceptable approach in dealing with these issues is simply not true. At the end of the day, I think we should all feel free to express ourselves in our own way, as long as we are respectful and avoid attacking others or making our comments personal! I hope this makes my point more clear

[havefaith]

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People..... I think you are kind of drifting away from what Oney was originally trying to point out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but she was simply stating, that there are certian individuals who seem to be
not as committed as others. As Alcoholics - We are all Master Manipulators(but look where that get us, deeper in the bottle!)As soon as we get Honest with Ourselves & Each Other,life Does get Better!
Please stop Taking this So Personal! Be Honest With Yourself..........

[Miss Behaving]

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yes it does and thanks for that. I certainly agree that recovery involves mental and emotional work. I guess I'm just trying to say that there is a fine line to be trod between the tough love and the enabling stuff, depending on the mental and emotional state of the person who is having a hard time.

In the end, I have found nothing but support and inspiration on this site. The times when fights break out are thankfully few and far between. I really like it when there are threads like this one that stimulate honest response and debate.

I have got virtually no work done today, but it has been a very instructive and educational one :H

[Sunnyvalenting]

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I am quite late to this thread but read it with interest. My assumption has always been that if someone posts about a subject they are "putting it out there" for general discussion, comments, advice or whatever seems right. If someone posts that they have had a drink after saying they don't want to they are just reaffirming the paradox of addiction which in my view is just that: doing what we know is not right for us. Going against our best judgment. Isn't that why we are here? To learn new skills, insights, and share our strengths? To share what worked for us and what did not?
It took me over 12 years of trying different things before I was able to become securely abstinent in January of this year. I had made a promise to my son that I might not succeed but I would keep trying. I din't have any idea at the time it would take that many tries or that long! I don't think I am the exception either. I believe recovery starts with the intention to recover but the means is different and the path different for each addict. The last thing I tried finally worked (baclofen in my case). But the point is that there have to be second, third, fourth, fiftieth, and unlimited chances for renewal and recomittment to the goal.
Furthermore I don't believe that anyone has the right to tell someone that what they posted on this site made them drink! If you read something and drink it is because you are addicted to alcohol and on some, (often subconscious), level, will actively be looking for excuses to drink. Anything will do including an intentional or unintentional slight or criticism. One thing that must eventually happen is for the individual to stop blaming anyone or anything for this disorder and take individual responsibility for all aspects of it. I believe only then can they start the true path to secure abstinence. If they do not their abstinence becomes contingent on people treating them a certain way or life feeling "fair" or not having problems or challenges. Therefore we need not walk on eggshells around one another. Ad hominem attacks, however, which I have witnessed on several threads, take us nowhere, turn people off, and do not add to the discussion. We should share ideas and concepts not attack one another or take offense.
All the best,

[one2many]

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Hey Guys,

There are a lot of different views and opinions here and rightly so. Thank you to each and every one of you who contributed, you input is valid and very much welcome. It is very interesting to read the way other people see and view things.

I am delighted that it did not turn into a slagging match and that we could all discuss our different opinions with losing our tempers.

[mario]

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Sometimes people who have had a slip/relaspe/drank again.. are ashamed of themselves sometimes so ashamed that they fear to come back here.
They develop the old inferiority complex and tell themselves that they are no good,that they have let down there friends here and elsewhere, that they are hopeless & that they can never make it, This state of mind is perhaps worse than it was originally intended, They have been somewhat weakened , But there experience of logging on here is not entirely lost. They always know that they can stop again if they really want to, they know that there is still great help & advice here if they will ask for it.But first you have to want to change more than anything else to change.

[Mish]

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sapphire1;996242 wrote: My last post was not in reply to this thread in particular, moreover an observation about how we deal with each other when there are differences of opinions. Personally I am not in favour of the Tough love approach on a public forum such as this. My reasons for this idea is that posts from desperate people show a limited amount of information about the person seeking help. There may be cultural, socio-economic, educational differences that are not explained and therefore not taken into account on a single-dimensional (the written word) communication such as this site. We may not be getting an accurate picture of what a person is or isnt doing to help themselves. How do we know what their plan is, and indeed if they do have one, who can judge if it is an adequate one or not. We are not in the position to make judgements about how serious a person really is about their sobriety...because we are simply not them. Tread lightly guys, the written word is a very powerful and sometimes very destructive tool. I feel no frustration whatsoever about people posting either repeatedly drunk, or posting that they are drinking and "slipping".....it is not for me to get annoyed about how they go about their business. I have my own agenda for my own recovery, they have theirs. It does not sway me from my course by reading of another trying to find their way out.......even if it doesnt line up with my own methods. I chose who to engage in discussion and I leave the rest. It should be the perogative of everyone here to do the same. I personally have a tough love counsellor. That works for me and I sought him out. He doesnt gel with everyone and thats okay........I have a friend that is terrified by him and would not do well withthat sort of in your face, confrontational style....she responds really well to gentle, loving support......her counsellor says things like "darling you are doing a great job, dont be too hard on yourself" For her that doesnt mean, dont grow or dont try different strategies, it just wraps her up in the comfort that she needs so that she can keep trying, and she does. LIfe is complicated, people are complicated, one size doesnt fit all. We come from so many different walks of life, we all have experiences that shape us and also different ways of responding to our environment. Lets celebrate those differences.

What a well thought out, intelligent and articulate post, Saff. :goodjob:
It is very dangerous to assume our approach is the right one, and particularly in the written form. It is often impossible to discern the tone of a post, and a misunderstanding might stumble a fragile soul and cause them to not come back.
At the same time I appreciate that Oney is not talking of browbeating anyone, just being honest, with compassion and respect. I've never seen Oney post anything unkind.
However, we can't assign people motive either, assuming they are just here for a kiss and a cuddle and an 'it's ok,' because it's NOT ok. We all start on this journey from different places...maybe some of us are driving Jaguars, Rolls Royces and Mercedes...maybe some of us are broken down on the side of the road with the bonnet up in our old bunkie. The main thing is, we're all heading in the same direction and whether we're in the fast lane, the slow lane or just pulling out of the driveway, we need to show everyone courtesy, consideration and respect. That's what keeps things flowing along smoothly.
Some of us are tomatoes with thin skins...some of us are pumpkins.
I don't agree with coddling or enabling, but sometimes it behoves us well to overlook our own frustrations at others' apparent inability to meet our expectations and put their needs in front of our need to express our feelings before we word our replies. Kindness is never misplaced.
This is an excellent thread, Oney...

[gyco]

WAKE UP PEOPLE!

great post onster

[greeneyes]

WAKE UP PEOPLE!

What a great thread!

Recently I was reading about the ego and the things it tries to do to maintain it's status within us. It needs a victim story to justify undesirable feelings and actions it may have for whatever reason.For there to be a victim story, there must be a perpetrator upon whom these undesirable thoughts, feelings are projected, taking the heat off the ego for those undesirable traits. Victim storys need listeners. The ego will seek out listeners and heartily defend itself against non-supporters of the victim story. Hopefully, the person is able to work through the reasons, and thereby discover the victim story doesn't hold water and is able to release it and move on. An indian tribe's approach was given. A person who was feeling a a victim was allowed to appear in the circle of members and carry on with the victim story will full abandon while the members validated the story. Three times. That was it. Then the tribe's position turns to one of "OK, we've listened as a sounding board 3 times and supported it and now we're done. We will not listen anymore. Do something about your problem now." There's more to it, but you get the idea.

I think in some ways MWO is like the tribe and addiction is like the issue, and we all have a story - for a while. I think some are victims longer than others and will find those to support that position. So you get a mix like this. Some will continue to validate and some will move to a different form of support, call it tough love or whatever you want. It isn't right or wrong, it's just where people (the storyteller and the listener) are at any given point in time. I do think though that in a broader sense (think universe), that we as a humans are needing to wake up as a shift in consciousness is occurring. It is not a good time to be an alcoholic victim living in a haze. Perhaps Oney's choice of the words WAKE UP was not coincidental. I think inherent in the urging to move forward is goodness of spirit.

Well, I do get out there sometimes, eh? Thanks for listening if you made it this far.

[rubywillow]

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Yes you do, Green One, and always deliver spectacularly!
Many of you know I own and manage rental houses. Hubs and I have taken a lot of pride in providing safe, well-maintained, comfortable HOMES for families not able or ready to own their own. It's all by the book, a business, but we're the ones who solve the problem when the heat goes out on the coldest night of the year, or the stove gives up it's ghost, or the water heater decides not to.
When we have a house available, the applicants pour in. And when I first started doing this, I fell for every hardluck story that came down the pike. But I've learned, unfortunately, that there are those who enjoy the victim status. Usually its the woman who tells me her husband won't work, or drinks, or does drugs. Every time I'd go there, it was obvious our contractual terms have been disregarded - animals in the house, smoking in the house, moving in more people, neglecting the property. Yet, someone, usually the woman, tells the same plaintive story of their hard luck. This is business, not just a microcosm of life. And I cannot enable their bad decisions by providing them a place to live that they continue to disrespect.
This experience has not made me uncaring, but I soon realized people have to enjoy their misery to perpetuate it. 90% of our current and former tenants became friends, go on to better, happier days, and thank us for helping and working with them. The others, well, they have chosen a path I can't deal with. It's that way in all things in life. How we perceive ourselves, why we do what we do. BUT, IMHO, many of these people don't even realize they are sabotaging themselves. I can't say, 'Oh, poor you, of course you can live here free and I'll pay the taxes and insurance and keep it nice while you sit on your butt and complain.' It's no different than any other type of enabling. But that is tangible, material. What each person who comes here needs is intrinsic. So, as for me, I'll continue to offer advice, friendship, and some tough love once a person seems strong and trusting enough to handle it. Each person, each story is unique.

[driver]

WAKE UP PEOPLE!

Ringing Cedars;996154 wrote: I think those words come from a place of empathy, compassion and personal experience. We know how badly a person feels when they give up their control and lose the plot. If they came here and shared they are looking for someone who knows how they feel and they find it. I would prefer them coming back, being honest and gaining wisdom and support than having to hide away and lose hope. Anyways, we are all entitled to our opinions, frustrations and deciding who and how to support others.

Your words, this thread remind me so much of some one on the "get Your Asses in Gear" thread. That person on that thread does not have any plan of stopping, they buy alcohol for their kids when the kids come over and then gets drunk and doesnt care! This is the type of person this thread is about. Those that just want to hang out on MWO and continue to drink and have the nerve to try to give newbies advice. They bring nothing of value to the site, they only make MWO look like a safe haven for people that want to feel ok about drinking. Clearly not looking for help - just has no life I guess.