Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

[Choochie]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

Thanks for the book suggestions everyone. I have added them to my list. At this stage of the game, it's really helpful for me to read books about addiction! :thanks::thanks:

[Doggygirl]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

Sheri, your posts reflects my sentiments about using whatever tools WORK FOR ME, and being willing to keep exploring and going to any length, in order to get sober. Including what you said about meds.

Sheri;1012654 wrote: Hi Choocie,

I love that there are so many options for us to find our way out if we really want to, and I think the most important thing, at least for me, was to keep an open mind because we just never know when something is going to click for us and what is going to make it happen. I personally did not put all my eggs into one basket: I used MWO, Spiritual River, Women for Sobriety and Allen Carr's Easy Way to Stop Drinking, plus read tons of other books and the AA thread here, and got something from all of them without a doubt. I think the only thing I was afraid to try was medication because I was very worried about my liver at the time, but if all else failed, I would have explored that route too.Sheri
I have the Rational Recovery book. This thread got me thinking - havent' thought about RR in a long time. Please accept my comments in the context of where I was mentally at the time I read the book. I actually bought the book LONG before I was prepared to admit my alcoholism (or alcohol dependence - whatever term you favor here) out loud.

I was in "AA is not for me" mode. In reality, my "AA is not for me" mode at the time was my way of living is DENIAL about the problem. (as opposed to accepting or rejecting AA on it's merits as a recovery program - I knew nothing about it) Back then, AA was the only recovery program I had heard about before I heard about RR. There was something very appealing about the RR book and basically, just deciding not to drink. For me, the "Big Plan" didn't work, but I was also not ready to stop drinking. So how could anything have worked???

Choochie;1012835 wrote: Kate, I agree. I think it's an outmoded model. I also think that the conventional wisdom tide is turning. I've never understood how it can be progressive and yet be a disease. Anyway, I guess what matters is that we find what works for us. I have never felt I had a disease. I just drank for a long time and developed a problem that I am now fixing!!

I don't spend much time debating "disease or not?" Whether alconolism is really a disease or not doesn't matter. Me not drinking is the only thing that matters. For the sake of conversation, I do tend to believe that there is something different in the brain chemistry of addicts v. non-addicts. I'm doing a lot of reading on this subject of late as it pertains to sugar. And where there is info to be read about sugar addiction, it seems to always be linked with AL addiction and also other addictions. I like Sunny's post - I think this part in particular reflects my current thinking:

Sunnyvalenting;1013176 wrote: I I think of alcohol abuse and dependence as phenomenon that some normal brains exhibit in response to the repeated environmental exposure to alcohol. Not all brains respond the same way to these toxins. So I guess it is a disease in the same sense that type 2 diabetes or environmental asthma and allergies are. IMO the treatment for the disease is lifelong abstinence.
Sunny

I discovered SMART after discovering MWO. I like that program and some of the tools (i.e. CBA) really helped me. I too got the ANGER from the RR guy and found SMART to be more even tempered and IMO, based in some actual science (psychology). Or maybe RR is there too, but I couldn't see it through the anger or just don't remember it.

Topsy-Turvy-Tracy;1013180 wrote: The author, Jack Dempsey, is an angry man - understandably so, but the rr program projects that anger. i I have plenty of my own anger without dragging Jack's around. RR softened into SMART, which Jack doesn't like and the SMART folks aren't fond of him, and on and on it goes. Same concept but SMART offers social support and, in numbers of people who use it (it is entirely free, unlike Jack's stuff), is much more successful than RR. Whether there is a significant difference in numbers for people for whom it works for, I don't know. But SMART is free and there is social support available through it, both online and in real time meetings.
Jack comments negatively on recovery groups. Recovery groups have been instrumental to my success in staying abstinent to this point. (MWO and AA for me today, but I also went to a small SMART group for a time) I also initially rejected the "one day at a time" thinking. "I'm quitting forever" was my mantra. (like the Big Plan) I started appreciating "one day at a time" as a more manageable chunk to deal with after my relapse.

Those are just my own thoughts about RR and where it does/doesn't fit into my own recovery experience. I encourage EVERYONE to explore all that is out there in finding what works for you. If "one size fit all" there wouldn't be so many choices available.

DG

[Choochie]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

DG - excellent, thanks! All of this is such good information. It will help not only me, but others coming along who want different ideas on available approaches to recovery.

[KateH1]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

Samantha T.;1013185 wrote: Choochie,
You will love Rational Recovery. it is right in line with Allen Carr's book in its viewpoint on what alcohol addiction "really is." It's no nonesense, "you are responsible," "get over the excuses" kind of talk. Trimpey is vehemently (as in militaristically) opposed to "recovery groups." He says they do more harm than good because they keep people stuck and dependent and, of course, powerless. It resonated with me on many levels because I found the "recovery group speak" very influential and not in a good way. I can see both sides of the fence on this topic, and how AA can be beneficial, but for me it was not. RR was the beginning of my exploration into other ways out and it helped me see the whole thing from a completely different perspective.

Another one you might find interesting is by Stanton Peele, "The Truth About Addiction and Recovery." Another 5-star read!

Samantha, I alway appreciate your posts!
Alcohol recovery is not a "Feel Good Process".....it is hard work and it requires a hard line no excuses approach in order to succeed. Though some might perceive this approach as angry or unkind, I do not. I think there is a huge difference between anger and mean and honest and straight foward.

For me facing myself, my responsibility for my drinking and the consequences there of was not easy. I drank to dull ALL emotions, good or bad for many, many years. I did not want to hear the TRUTH and I did not want to hear anything that sounded like criticism. Through reading and listening to others in recovery, I came to understand that these are common thoughts and reactions while still in the state of alcoholism. These thoughts and behaviors do not magicly disappear with 30, 60 or 90 days AF. Not even after a year or two. Recovery is a slow, and often painful process. If it were gentle, sweet and easy, more people would live without this horrible addiction and it's destruction. If LOVE could cure addiction, many of us would never have suffered as we have suffered.

Sometimes, when we hear things that we do not wan to face. It is easier to get angry with the source of the information, rather than at least considering the information itself.

I truly love threads like this one, for it is threads like this one that can cause us to really think and grow and recover! Thank you all who have contributed!!

xx Kate

[Sunnyvalenting]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

Great thread,
I totally agree with Samantha on this. For me the AA model was toxic and ineffective. I tried it sincerely for several years and failed utterly to achieve much sobriety. I like some of the tools but the idea of having to "wait for the miracle" was going to kill me. RR was my first step on my way out. It allowed me to look at the addiction differently and at my brain as "normal". It gave me 100% responsibility for acquiring and curing the disorder. This was particularly important as I am an athiest and waiting for god to fix me just wasn't working.
W respect the anger of Mr. Trimpey I think it is significant. He is a "true believer" in his method and feels that using self help groups and meds mean that one isn't committed to unconditional abstinence. He feels they do more harm than good. In my case I disagree with him.
As he does say we are each responsible for our own recovery. So I use a tool or 2 from AA, RR, MWO and my medicine. But the medicine (bac) allowed me to actually USE the tools consistently.
Sunny

[Choochie]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

Sunny, just curious. I don't know anything about the meds. Do you get off of them eventually and go AF, or do you stay on them indefinitely? What is it like to stop taking them? Do you know of someone who has stopped? Also, do you know of any groups that have a fellowship like AA but without the religious/higher power slant?

Choochie

[Sunnyvalenting]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

Coochie, Didn't see your post till just now. I have been on baclofen since jan 18th this year. I am currently on a very low dose just 15 mg at bedtime. It works by blocking the cravings. There is lots of info on the med threads on this website. Check it out if interested. I will stay on it as long as I want to or need to. My one year AF will be in one month and I will consider stopping it then. If I get any idea that I will drink again I will go back on a low dose. I may always carry some with me to avoid having to worry about relapse. I think there are those on the med site who have stopped just after a few months and are doing well, but with what I know about the neurochemical nature of addiction I think that is pretty early.
I know of no support groups like the one you are seeking. Only here on MWO.
Sunny

[Choochie]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

Sun - thanks for the post - wow almost a year - that's fecking fantastic!!

[lucky 2.0]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

C,

LifeRing is non-secular and has mtgs. Never been to one.

I think it all comes down to: DON'T PICK UP THE FIRST DRINK AND YOU WILL BE OK.

[Choochie]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

Lucky,

I've actually decided to try AA - have been to one meeting and liked it. Thanks for posting, though.

xx,
Choochie

[KevFromCanberra]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

This is a great thread.

I have dabbled with the RR Book and liked quite a lot of the thoughts in it, but probably wasn't sufficiently motivated at the time to apply it seriously. I think its a shame that he devotes so much energy slagging off the 12 step methods. I also have some problems with his concept of the beast. I am an athiest these days, but was brought up in a catholic environment, and the beast comes across to me as a form of the devil. So it turned me off when I read the book because I saw it as just a mirror image of the concept of the spirit that is supposed to save me in AA.

I have attended a few AA meetings in my time, and it was really great that they were available at the time. One time about 8 years ago, when I was living on my own in London doing a high pressure IT Contract, I got into a real downward cycle and was in very deep despair. I could not stop and went on a very bad bender over a long weekend that had me pretty close to alcohol poisononing. Luckily I found an AA Meeting in Earls Court and it was a life saver. As an athiest, I was not able to see myself sticking it out, but it was so great to have that support there at the time. The main benefit to me from attending that group was being able to talk to people who had all been to the same pit as I was in, and being able to talk to people outside of a drinking environment. It allowed me to feel that it wasnt just me and gave me the strenght to go cold turkey, totally dry out for a few weeks, and buy a crate load of recovery and positive thinking books to build my mental strength back up.

So I really appreciate AA, but I dont like the idea of surrendering responsibility for my own actions, and accepting a life long disease.

My ideal group would be one where people can meet and discuss various topics and issues without needing to drink alcohol at the same time. Sort of a non-drinkers club as opposed to an ex-drinkers club. It would be great to sit around have a chat over a tea or coffee, and discuss and plan various activities and events that would be alcohol free. Maybe such organisations already exist and I haven't found them yet?

I guess I am a bit resentfull that at work and in social situations, I will have to have some sort of excuses and strategies available to resist the peer group pressure to drink, as if I am the odd ball for not drinking alcohol.

I really think that western society is going to have to work at changing perceptions of what is acceptable behaviour, to the point where it is considered a strange and irrational act for a person to pour a poisonous drink down their throat, and the normal people are those who dont touch the stuff.

And I have been one of the worst offenders in the past, labelling non-drinkers as boring anti-social wierdos. I have a lot of home work to do on my own perceptions and cultural conditioning.

[Choochie]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

Kev, what a brilliant post. You have articulated my exact thinking on so many levels - the hesitancy about AA due to the surrendering/helpless aspect of it, the desire to find people to be with who don't drink, etc.

I am 68 days sober today. And, while I have fought going to AA (in my mind), I finally decided to try it last weekend for the first time. Although I feel pretty strong in my sobriety, I want an insurance policy and thought AA might be it. And, like you describe, I wanted to find a group of people I can sit with face to face who don't drink. And, for me, it is an added bonus that those people understand overcoming addiction. I decided to just get over whatever religious/spiritual parts of it I might encounter, just to be in the company of other people with drinking problems I could talk with.

Luckily for me, the group seems very cool - the religious part of it seems minimal, so I can deal with that. Some people who have a problem with the higher power part of AA say that they just think of God as the collective power of the people in the room. And, since AA says - "God as you understand him" I just try to think in a way that makes some sense for me - like the people in the room concept.

So, today will be my second meeting, and the jury is still out. But, overall, it seems worth shelving my hesitations for if it keeps me sober!!

Thanks so much for your post!

Choochie

[medic]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

Whilst I believe RR does have some interesting viewpoints I think, in a way, it has missed the point. I've said in an earlier post that drunk people are not happy people and I think the impulsive nature of "the beast" does not exist in a vacuum; rather it manifests because of inner unhappiness. I think the true root of most addiction is escapism and when we try and improve on this aspect of our lives the real rationality of the beast is undermined.

[Sunnyvalenting]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

Could go either way, medic. The unhappiness causing drink or the drink causing unhappiness. My drinking accelarated when I had a significant life stress 15 years ago. That was why I got worse, But after the stress went away I kept drinking. Then the drinking caused me to make such a mess of my brain and my life and I was again unhappy. Now that I don't drink I am back to my "normal" self whatever that is.
There is some overlap between impulsivity, creativity and addiction. It is interesting stuff.
Sunny

[KevFromCanberra]

Rational Recovery - Anyone Have Comments About This Book/Program?

Hi Choochie, I am glad you liked my post. I was a bit afraid that I had gone off into an unstructured rant.

I will be interested to hear how you get on with AA. I have been toying with going along myself, even if its just to get started on getting those coins. I am easily motivated by medals and stuff like that, so just trying to achieve the various milestones to get the various coins would be good motivation to me.

I am managing to not drink at the moment, and resisting the occasional cravings and temptation, but I have a few social engagements coming up over the next month where its going to be seen as very rude and anti-social for me not to drink. It would be handy to have a peer group of non-drinkers to act as a counterweight to those pressures.

I think this forum will answer that to a large extent, but I think I am still going to need to get involved in a face to face group in my local area.