On being an other at MWO

[dilayne]

On being an other at MWO

HI Cait,
I was only referring to myself when i referred to avoiding mainstream insitutions (I certainly have no idea of other people's experience with that)...I did 'do' AA many years ago for a year or so and recieved many life long gifts from it...there are also a good many people that come here and go to AA. I have an incredible respect for AA but have a slightly different 'attitude' about addictions that don't necessarily mesh with the AA approach..it's just me and how I 'see' things and where I am...I believe AA is a very viable and valuable approach and deserves credit for saving millions of lives.

Chat away Cait...you don't seem to be rambling at all! :0)

[Guest]

On being an other at MWO

Dilayne, thanks for that

Honestly, I would'nt go to an AA meeting now, if you paid me in solid gold.

I Agree with the issues you raised, I think my comments came across a bit wrong.

I was told to ' SHUT UP ' - in no uncertain terms , on the first ( and only ever AA I have been to, because I asked 1 question. I didn't know you aren't allowed to interact )


So I agree with what you are saying, yet, I am posing the question, how can Patty get So much out of it?

Hang on, thought of another story - it's with regards to Canada again ( sorry Canada ) . My husbands Uncle-in-law was an alcoholic, and aunty Ruth lived in Canada with him, now he hasn't touched a drop in years, yet went very religious, and goes to AA ( with Aunty Ruth ) and continues to do so to this day .
They came over here 3 years ago for my brother-in-laws wedding blessing in Manchester and we all sat around the table drinking lemonade and OJ. Yet nothing was said, and I didn't give it a second thought, but, my mother-in-law has since told me that that is because he was ( is ) an alcoholic, but I didn't think I had a problem then.

So is it religion - or - AA I am jolly confused about how to find my way out of this muddle.

Sorry for harping on Dilayne.

Cait X

[dilayne]

On being an other at MWO

Hey Cait..in defense of AA (I wouldn't go now either) it does depend a lot on the group..you have to remember that it's a bunch of alcoholics when you go to a meeting..if you don't have a good core group of people with some sobriety, you may enter a meeting with no real accumulated wisdom or experience..it's a real shame if that happens, but it does occassionally, so some people have had bad experiences. Your experience certainly would not be the norm..if you went to five different meeting places and had the same experience..one might wonder what was going on. I've been to different groups and there are different dynamics, but overall my experienced was good and was lucky to have met some very wise and caring people there..actually some of my closest friends have 20+ years...AND I've met some very sick and confused souls there as well that I would do very well to keep my distance from!

[Bluemoon]

On being an other at MWO

Hi Cait -
I don't think you can separate religion and AA. Or, if not religion, exactly, then the presumption that all believe in a diety, a "higher power". I have been to rehab. AA was their only method. I rejected AA and its processes. The facility made every attempt to find a path for me that I could work with. I chose "Rational Recovery". But, in so doing, and so rejecting AA, I encountered much hostility. Much mob hostility. AA doesn't seem capable of allowing help that doesn't come from them, nor recognizing another method. They are more interested in recruiting folks than helping folks.

AA works for some. (I say that betting more than knowing. I have no experience with AA's effectiveness.) And, I'm of the opinion that if it works for you, do it. Whatever "it" is. Unfortunately, you'll not get the same support from AA if you look outside of Bill's program. AA might be the "dianetics" of rehab. That has been my experience.

I'm glad to see you talking, Cait.

[Guest]

On being an other at MWO

Hi Bluemoon

I am SO glad you have said that - I thought I was just weird !

The chanting made me feel really REALLY uncomfortable, as if I was joining a cult. But having said that , I know that lots of people swear by AA and it has changed their lives, so I don't wish to say anything detrimental about it..
I just don't think I can do that because I would feel like I was acting.. And I don't want to lie or act anymore.

That has been an uplifting letter to read.
Thankyou.

Cait X

[eustacia]

On being an other at MWO

I'm so glad to read all of these replies and I would like to thank everyone who responded. The question came to me when I was participating in a chat session and someone who is an "other" was derided. Since I treat specific information gleaned in the chat room according to an ethic of "what is said in the the room, stays in the room," I will not write about the exchange. I thought more about it recently when I was trying to PM someone and I couldn't remember how to spell her name. In searching for it on the list of MWO members, I was struck by how many people joined but posted only once or a few times. Of course, there are many possible reasons why a member might not post that would have nothing to do with being out of the demographic mainstream of this community. But these disappearing members brought to mind a situation about which I have limted second hand information. An elderly, apparently computer literate American woman (she was capable of sending emails), the sister of someone I know, was struggling with abusive drinking. She was nonreligious, lesbian and lived in a very isolated setting. I don't know whether there were any therapy options or even AA near her home. But she did have a computer in her home. She recently lost her fight with alcohol, not through cirrhosis or Korsakoff's syndrome, but through despair. She committed suicide. Of course I have no way of knowing whether she ever searched the internet for help with her drinking and I have no reason to believe that she was one of the members who posted once or twice and then disappeared, but I especially thought about what her response might have been had she encountered a remark that could have been construed as bigoted. Would she have felt safe enough to try to get help here?

My drinking behavior has made tremendous incursions on my self-esteem. It takes courage even to come here and write about some of the things I have done. If I were even less mainstream than I am or if I were solely from a culture where emotional and substance abuse problems were the source of tremendous shame, would I come back if I encountered disdainful remarks about someone who was clearly part of the community? Probably not.

I started this thread because I wanted to share my concerns with others. In the process, I feel that I have opened an important topic and I feel good about that. It is also clear from this thread that I have hurt some feelings and for that I am deeply regretful.

I feel that members of a program as useful and generally caring as MWO should not shoot themselves in the foot by forgetting to examine their own consciousnesses for areas of exclusivity. Occasionally, I find myself operating according to a bias and the realization can be very humbling. I'm hoping that as a community we can work to become aware of biases and statements that can be construed as exclusionary.

My best to everyone, Eustacia

[lushy]

On being an other at MWO

E, this has been an interesting discussion, however, I found some things in your last post sort of vague. I do not know of what biases and statements any of us have made that would make someone feel excluded. I think we are a very, very accepting bunch. Having said that, if I have ever said or done anything that has felt exclusionary I would definitely want to know about it. I think perhaps I would prefer it in a PM though!!! So, I do not know if you want to be more specific, or if when these statements come up you could point them out. I would be horrified if I had hurt anyones feelings on here or made them not feel welcome, and I am sure I am not alone in that thought. Best to you as well.......

[eustacia]

On being an other at MWO

Lushie,

I was purposely vague in my last post for the reason that I stated, but I do want to assure you that you had nothing to do with the remarks that disturbed me.

Thanks so much for your concern, sweetie!

:heart: E

[Bluemoon]

On being an other at MWO

Hi Eustacia -
I am new here, relatively, and haven't seen the "bigoted" exchanges you've mentioned. What I have noticed is the community is established. Meaning, the folks that regularly post here seem to know each other well. Its a bit daunting for a newbie to break into the clique. I do not consider myself mainstream, but I will "lurk" and not post not because of my differences, but because I don't want to tread on an established order.

Which came first? The depression or the alcoholism? Many depressives drink. And, many drinkers are depressed. Perhaps its an academic point. I fall into both categories. Curing one, doesn't necessarily eliminate the other. Depression is a long, narrow, dark, rabbit hole, and fatal of its own. I'm sorry about your friend's sister. Sometimes when you're in the rabbit hole simple solutions - such as finding help on the web - don't announce themselves, and cannot be seen. Sometimes, people get tired. They get tired of fighting the same battle over and again. Depression robs people of their strength. And, people need strength to battle depression. I am reminded of what Hemingway said after his attempt to cure his depression with electric shock treatment: "The procedure was a success, but they lost the patient." And, I am reminded of what Neitchze (sp??) said regarding suicide: "Its always consoling to think of suicide: in that way one gets through many a bad night." It might be a far too simple thing to write off a suicide to alcoholism. And, as millions more people are depressed than commit suicide, it may be an equally simple thing to write off a suicide to depression.

Victor Frankl wrote "Man searches For Meaning" based on his experiences in concentration camps in Nazi Germany. He wondered why some men decided to die and others decided to live under the same circumstances. Its an interesting question. And, an interesting book.

At any rate - sorry for rambling - I find the information posted here of great value, and, so far, welcoming without stipulations. As I have said before, I am very happy to have found this site, this community.

[lushy]

On being an other at MWO

To address what you said Blue, I do not think anything is established here. People come and go all of the time. We all are scared when we first jump in here. I know I was. But after a couple of posts people make you feel like family. I think it seems like some of us know each other better than others because of a comment made in a prior post that then sparks a conversation the next day and also the amount of time we spent posting (as you can see I am a postoholic as I was so lovingly called the other day). My point is I want to encourage you to please jump in anytime. I have found your posts very interesting and would love to hear from you again. I think you would find you are not as different as you think.

[Bluemoon]

On being an other at MWO

Thank you, Lush!
Of course, the formality of introduction probably exists in my own mind, but I appreciate the invitation, none-the-less. I am a bit of an introvert and making friends is always awkward for an introvert.
I always appreciate your posts/comments.
Thanks, Lush.

[C]

On being an other at MWO

Dearest Eustacia,

You are a beautiful, beautiful introspective soul.

I reached the same conclusion that you did many months ago and wondered about it and put out a little survey searching for the "others'' or non-white, minority, non-midlde-to-upper-middle class. And, of course, I received a lot of posts that had nothing to do with the statement.

Anyway, I agree. Statiscally it is a fact that MWO members are by far predominantly women, 30 & up, white, and middle to upper-middle class.

Does that mean this is an intentionally biased place, or that members are exclusive? I really don't think so at all!.

I think it simply means that people go where they feel comfortable. If there are black women who feel comfortable with white women, then they come on and have no problem. Often blacks from other countries feel right at home in our predominantly white culture. Often blacks who are not as secure/privileged/educated ( however you want to call it) -- do not. And, of course, then they would be leary of joining the MWO culture.

The point I am making is that it is simply numbers. Most of us originally related to RJ' s life and story and were drawn to this site & the culture grew.

I am particularly aware of exclusiveness or racial or socio-economic issues because my husband is a black American and so are both of my beautiful, incredible natural children.

And so, to your very thoughtful comment "had she encountered a remark that could have been construed as bigoted", I have never, never seen such a remark in all of my time here on the boards.

However, facts are facts, in this country and I am so glad you are sensitive and aware. And the fact is... we STILL have incredible racial issues and divisions in this country in "all levels" of our lives. And just because we white liberals like to say "there is not such a thing as racism anymore" -- it is simply not true.

So I salute you Eustacia! Also -- I LOVE that "souls run in packs" quote. Love it, so true!! I do believe each of us belongs to a "soul cluster" that exists beyond this life.

Oh dear God, I hate, hate long posts and doubt that anyone will read this diatribe. But it is a lot of who I am.

Bravo Eustacia and to "all of you loving souls" here...
Hey Caitlin & Brandy...

~Chrysa

PS Also back to my mwo respite & trying to remain calm & productive... Luv~C

[I Like Brandy]

On being an other at MWO

Hi everyone;

I read all of the posts that started this conversation; I'm not sure what road this was started on. One thing I can say is that I've been here for 1 year, and I've seen alot of people come and go. Some eventually comeback. This site was never represented to judge or to follow the AA mentallity. I started with AA and and several other support groups. Being here gives you the freedom to choose the path that works for you, whatever that is. I've never gotten involved in the people that want to judge and just be KNOW IT ALLS. But I know everybody here has an agenda, and if the program works fine, if not you still get love and support.

A number of us got together in New York over the summer, that was the first official MWO meeting. We didn't judge or direct the road of anybody. But we talked, hugged and got to know each other on a personal face to face situation. That made us closer, the love and support that has flowed was passed on to members that weren't there. You were all in our thoughts. Hopefully in 2007 we can do it again, and maybe more members will join us!

Just my two cents
:h Brandy

[lucky 2.0]

On being an other at MWO

I think this entire thread is ludicrous.

[boycie]

On being an other at MWO

hi all,
I am new here and have noticed the more female than male trend but as far as race, religion, sexual orientation etc.. seriously does anybody really care!!!. This is not speed dating, this is a place to vent, give and recieve support for a common problem. If we make good friends along the way great and being friends we shouldn't care about the periferials. There is prejudic out there regardless of what is said but we are all bought here by a common problem and to acheive a common goal, improve ourselves and/or our situation. Lets not create division, lets embrace what we have as it is truely special and not found everywhere. Just my two cents worth anyway. Kim