WHY do you drink?

[kuya]

WHY do you drink?

nancy;1480586 wrote: Kuya, I think it's really important to understand what's going on and not accept some outdated, one-size-fits-all pop psychology or 12-stepper interpretation. It's also important to understand that we are individuals and one solution does not fit all.

That's what I love about the book.

So this interpretation that addiction is pure self harm, that's what we all accept. In reality, it can be self medication, with very harmful effects. It's a faulty attempt at helping oneself that results in harm. That's very different from setting out deliberately to harm yourself.

READ THE BOOK!

I will say that I am sure this will benefit people who are functional and binge drink and have psych issues, I have no idea about the benefit for chronic, heavy drinkers who are physically addicted.

I only read and considered equating drinking etc to self harm a few days ago........it became outdated VERY fast ! :H:H

Surely the term 'self harm' covers ALL these activities and therefore we are debating semantics.

When a person cuts their arms it is a form of self medication with endorphins......is it NOT still self harm?

Alcohol tastes disgusting, cigarettes make you cough and want to puke, anorexia causes painful hunger pangs, weakness etc.

They all have a reward which could be described as self medicating, they are ALL primarily harmful......we had to override the body's instinctual desire to reject the activity......the 'benefit ' came later.........so I dispute the validity of your position TBH.

It would be like finding that failed suicide through hanging resulted in the pleasure of auto asphyxia .......then claiming that you were never suicidal. Kinda smacks of denial IMO

[kuya]

WHY do you drink?

K9Lover;1480592 wrote: I reported Doo-Doo as well.

But back to the topic at hand, I too am listening to a Quit Smoking CD. Tonight will be my third night. It's not a miracle (of course) but I think it IS starting to sink in. It has the same theme as the one Kuya was referring to...all forms of self-harm seem to stem from uncomfortable thoughts within ourselves.

Kuya - Have you quit smoking? I keep relapsing but I'm not giving up. I will continue the CD and everything else under the sun to get this demon licked once and for all!!! I MAY have to ask my Doctor for meds, but some of the (possible) side effects scare the beejeesus out of me. LOL

p.s. Doo-doo's other thread seems to have been removed....

I have been quit for a week. I have only quit for 9 days five years ago and I intend to make this my last.
I was gonna PM you when I was more certain of my quit......but now it is out there .....have you read the Allan Carr book?

[Doggygirl]

WHY do you drink?

kuya;1480518 wrote:
I developed anorexia, began smoking and drinking within the same twelve month period. I was fourteen, very alone, my father had just died and all these dysfunctional coping mechanisms began.

In all honesty, since alcohol AND cigarettes AND starving all hurt to start with I believe we ALL were self harming to cope with uncomfortable feelings.
I too started out with anorexia as my first self-harm type behavior, and have been exploring this a little more in recent times. I did not have the mental or emotional energy or inner strength to delve into these deeper issues earlier in my sobriety.

nancy;1480564 wrote:
I suggest you read Heart of Addiction by Lance Dodes who says that addiction looks like self-harm but is actually an attempt at coping that backfires.

I am currently reading this book and am finding it very interesting. I view it as additional information that might be useful rather than information "instead of" what I have learned thus far - some of which applies to my own situation more than other stuff. This book is interesting for sure. I also plan on reading his other one once I'm done with Heart of Addiction. Have you read that one too? Thoughts?

DG

PS - I too empathize with the hurt doo-doo is probably going through. Maybe ignoring the obvious drunk posts would be better than giving them so much attention.

[FreeFly]

WHY do you drink?

Doggygirl;1480601 wrote:
PS - I too empathize with the hurt doo-doo is probably going through. Maybe ignoring the obvious drunk posts would be better than giving them so much attention.

Concur.

[K9Lover]

WHY do you drink?

Kuya - I read Allan Carr's Easy Way to Quit Drinking book, but not the smoking one. A lady from my church works at the library and I am THAT much of a closet smoker that I didn't want to risk requesting it (but at this point I honestly dont care!!) LOL I did watch some of his videos on youtube though.

My best quit ever was 81 days a few months ago. I can do 7 days, I can do 30 days...then I go right back to this madness. AAARRRGGGG!

[nancy]

WHY do you drink?

more thoughts on this thread

Kuya your response to what I wrote is leaving me out of my depth. I guess I was thinking about binge drinking, binge eating, smoking, shopping addiction, things of excess that give you a momentary high. I wasn't thinking it through to cutting and anorexia. I don't really know much about those things. The thesis of Heart of Addiction is that you gain control through a compulsion. So a compulsion to not eat might fit that description but honestly I really don't know much at all about anorexia.

To DG: I think it can be used with lots of other things, but I think the underlying philosophy of heart of addiction is radically different. The author doesn't agree with the disease model. He doesn't believe it's like diabetes or an allergy. He stresses the importance of self-understanding rather than chalking everything up to a mysterious biological/genetic disease. There are so many differences. I guess if you believe him, you could use other things for support but not accept their fundamental definition of what the problem is (for me that's a deal breaker, but I know some people can take what they need and leave the rest.) I know there's a rational therapy program that describes addiction as "the beast."

That's opposite to this, addiction is a tool for self-knowledge. Addiction isn't your beast it's the way you attempt to help yourself. And you should learn from it, not ignore it.

The HALT advice from AA is way too simplistic and not personalized.

Also this program doesn't stress immediate abstinence. And it doesn't punish failure with a loss of your chips and shame. But it takes a long time. And that last bit may be unacceptable for people. Also, he doesn't really address people who are chronically and physically addicted and highly dysfunctional because of alcohol. The examples in his books are of functional alcoholics.

I did read the second book and didn't get much added value. It was good, more of the same. I'd advise getting it thought, the price is low and maybe some of the examples will have meaning for you. The experience overall has been very profound for me. I followed it up with research on compulsive disorders.

And DG I really agree with your advice on Doo-Doo! You are so wise as always.

[kuya]

WHY do you drink?

K9Lover;1480610 wrote: Kuya - I read Allan Carr's Easy Way to Quit Drinking book, but not the smoking one. A lady from my church works at the library and I am THAT much of a closet smoker that I didn't want to risk requesting it (but at this point I honestly dont care!!) LOL I did watch some of his videos on youtube though.

My best quit ever was 81 days a few months ago. I can do 7 days, I can do 30 days...then I go right back to this madness. AAARRRGGGG!

Read "easy way" and "the only way". I think you would benefit from both because of the struggle.....it is all about changing your mind.

The thing you may or may not have tried is Kudzu......I cant believe how well Kudzu prevents nicotine cravings. I had some from quitting alcohol....didnt need it for alcohol, but boy did they help with nicotine. three capsules three times daily.....sorted

[halo]

WHY do you drink?

I think the question has to be not why do you drink ,but rather why can't you stop drinking... This is the question I have been asking myself as I am on 10 days of being AF.

Personally I love wine, I love trying different kinds of wine, and pairing wine with different foods, I love food shows and trying new restaurants, I love to cook and try new recipes and nothing enhances great food like a wonderful glass of wine...Some doctors have actually stated that a glass or two of vino, epecially red, has positive health benefits..

My question to myself is why can't I just enjoy a glass or two of wine with amazing food, reap the health benefits enjoy the meal and stop??? Why after the meal is done do I continue to drink, why at times can I never seem to stop??? This is the question I am pondering as I am becoming AF .. I know why I drink, I want to know why I can't stop?

[kuya]

WHY do you drink?

halo;1480639 wrote: I think the question has to be not why do you drink ,but rather why can't you stop drinking... This is the question I have been asking myself as I am on 10 days of being AF.

Personally I love wine, I love trying different kinds of wine, and pairing wine with different foods, I love food shows and trying new restaurants, I love to cook and try new recipes and nothing enhances great food like a wonderful glass of wine...Some doctors have actually stated that a glass or two of vino, epecially red, has positive health benefits..

My question to myself is why can't I just enjoy a glass or two of wine with amazing food, reap the health benefits enjoy the meal and stop??? Why after the meal is done do I continue to drink, why at times can I never seem to stop??? This is the question I am pondering as I am becoming AF .. I know why I drink, I want to know why I can't stop?r brains rejected as poisonous ????

I think I must be devils advocate here......WHEN,HOW and WHY did you learn to drink alcohol???. It only tastes nice now because you have learned to like it. Give it to a child and they will wince and think it tastes disgusting. Learning to 'like' it is a fallacious attempt at trying to adult.......but why did we persist in trying to ingest something our brains rejected as poisonous.

[halo]

WHY do you drink?

I like the When, How and Why comment and will have to think how they relate to my relationship with alcohol, very interesting..

However I don't know if using the analogy, give it to a child and they will wince and think it tastes disgusting supports the point. Children's food choices and palates have yet to develop, many tend to think certain healthy types of food are disgusting: for my kids spinach and kale comes to mind.

The question remains why can some people take or leave alcohol and others can never stop? Is it based on genetic components or environmental fatcors. The good old nature vs nurture debate.

[Nursie]

WHY do you drink?

I liked the part somewhere between the first drink and the "Oh shit, what happened last night" feeling, and was forever trying to obtain and maintain that feeling, but always ended up drinking waaaay more than that feeling required because I thought more drinks equals better feeling?

Sober people must think we are absolute loons.

[nicelife]

WHY do you drink?

I'm kind of on your page Nursie.

I was always searching for that euphoric/care free/fun/peaceful/relaxed/calm feeling. I think I thought (LOL) that the more I drank, the more likely I'd find those feelings and enjoy that experience. Never happened!!!! I just got pissed and ugly, fell down drunk, after causing and being involved in chaos.....

[kuya]

WHY do you drink?

halo;1480657 wrote: I like the When, How and Why comment and will have to think how they relate to my relationship with alcohol, very interesting..

However I don't know if using the analogy, give it to a child and they will wince and think it tastes disgusting supports the point. Children's food choices and palates have yet to develop, many tend to think certain healthy types of food are disgusting: for my kids spinach and kale comes to mind.

The question remains why can some people take or leave alcohol and others can never stop? Is it based on genetic components or environmental fatcors. The good old nature vs nurture debate.

If a child is offered a selection of foods they will naturally eat what they need. As they grow older they will choose vegetables because their bodies start to need them.

As adults, particularly as adults that have poor diets, we start to enjoy kale etc because we NEED the vitamins. Children who have kale forced on them will develop food issues created by controlling adults.

Alcohol is not an adult 'development', it is an adult 'decision'. No healthy person would voluntarily ingest alcohol except by the suggestion of another human being.

[mama bear]

WHY do you drink?

great thread!

[Doggygirl]

WHY do you drink?

nancy;1480621 wrote: I wasn't thinking it through to cutting and anorexia. I don't really know much about those things. The thesis of Heart of Addiction is that you gain control through a compulsion. So a compulsion to not eat might fit that description but honestly I really don't know much at all about anorexia.
In my case, annorexia (not eating) was absolutely about gaining control in a situation where I otherwise felt I had no control. Of course I didn't see it that way at the time - it was just something that made me "feel good." As I read Heart of Addiction I see how that was a response that made me feel I had some control where otherwise I felt trapped. The "helplessness" that he talks about really resonated with me. And I can see how self-harm behaviors in other forms came into play once I left "not eating" behind. I can see how even now I engage in behaviors that have a self-harm effect (binge eating on sugar) when I feel "stressed" (trapped).

It is fairly common to see "cutting" in conjunction with substance abuse. In learning more about that, I can see how it accomplishes much the same effect - a "release" when one feels trapped/helpless.

To DG: I think it can be used with lots of other things, but I think the underlying philosophy of heart of addiction is radically different. The author doesn't agree with the disease model. He doesn't believe it's like diabetes or an allergy. He stresses the importance of self-understanding rather than chalking everything up to a mysterious biological/genetic disease. There are so many differences. I guess if you believe him, you could use other things for support but not accept their fundamental definition of what the problem is (for me that's a deal breaker, but I know some people can take what they need and leave the rest.) I know there's a rational therapy program that describes addiction as "the beast."

That's opposite to this, addiction is a tool for self-knowledge. Addiction isn't your beast it's the way you attempt to help yourself. And you should learn from it, not ignore it.

The HALT advice from AA is way too simplistic and not personalized.

Also this program doesn't stress immediate abstinence. And it doesn't punish failure with a loss of your chips and shame. But it takes a long time. And that last bit may be unacceptable for people. Also, he doesn't really address people who are chronically and physically addicted and highly dysfunctional because of alcohol. The examples in his books are of functional alcoholics.

I recognize what is different about this author's beliefs and approaches. I also recognize the similarities with other approaches regardless of how he couches it. It has helped me a lot in my own journey to learn to look for similarities and not just focus on differences in a very broad sense, when considering alternative ideas about addiction and recovery.

As an example, this author talks about situations where we feel trapped and helpless as a trigger. In AA, the issue of trying to control what we are not able to control as a trigger is often discussed. I see a similarity there?

Interesting discussion indeed and thanks for the recommendation about the second book.

DG