Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

[Ripley]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

Morrison, I'm with you 100% buddy. (BTW am not depressed, just thoughtful, and probably read too much french existential stuff at a formative age)

Why not be able to end your life if you want to, I mean, it is YOUR LIFE.

I have a great friend who took his life earlier this year. He was 32. A lot of people raged about how selfish he was, how angry they were with him etc. I couldn't understand them. It was obviously a horrible horrible thing to happen: this guy was lovely - funny, good company, etc, but a drifter, a lost boy, kind of sad at heart, we all knew it - his funeral was bursting at the seams with friends. 12 women contacted the police to say that they were his current girlfriend, for goodness sake. The man was gorgeous, but very very troubled. But the point was he was in so much personal pain that NOT BEING was preferable to BEING. Which was his absolute right as far as I could see.

And none of us had the right to argue with that as we weren't in his shoes.

Just my point of view,

K x

[morrison]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

First off - VERY SORRY to Loise

Loise, I know you said you wouldn't hang on this thread. I respect that. But if you read this, I in no way wanted to offend or upset anybody. I was away, and was told I should hang and get off stuff that was on my mind. I said "NO", I didn't want to be selfish. Obviously, my fucked up ways always do just what they always do. Offend people. Ripley. That is exactly what I meant too. Two friends that killed themselves. But, but, the suicides were years apart. Different friends, different personallities. Nobody really saw Keith offing himself. He was my first friend to do it, long ago. Then, Danny killed himself. My best friend at the time. One of the few people I could talk to with my messed up stuff. He was pretty messed too, just never thought he would end it. I have a very hard time calling him selfish. Sorry. I remember people crying over him that couldn't care less about him while he was alive. People some time cry to satiate their own sense of well being. That is why I said let people be what they want, do want they want. That is the ultimate respect and love I think there is. I love what I get here, and from the people in my life that puts up with my stuff. But I just think that if people are so gone upstairs, they have every right to go out. It's not the easy way as people think. They suffered a long time before making that decision. End of rant. End of me again for awhile.

[Ripley]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

Mmmm Morrison you do not sound good, man.

perhaps you should hang around here for a bit. there are some kind people who will listen you know. I'm one, for a start.

Rip x

[paula]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

I have never heard of doctor death, neither do i agree with assisted suicide.
people can die peacefully and pain free with good palliative care. I believe
that god gives life and he will decide.
Hope you feel better soon Morrison.

[paula]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

I do agree with you Nancy, I do not think we should keep someone alive by artificial
means, that is not the same as ending their life. I am nursing a terminally ill old lady
at the moment, she is kept comfortable and given pain relief, and is slowly but peacefully
fading away. I do remember Harold Shipton, he had a power/ god like complex, and liked
to feel he had the power over life and death, he also forged wills belonging to his patients
He killed many patients over many years in his care.

[louise]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

Morrison, please do not go off by yourself. I was not offended and I would much rather deal with someone who has your attitude than "they will go to Hell" etc. My upset was not with you. When we try to stop drinking we get more in touch with some of the reasons we drank in the 1st place and suicide has been traumatic for my family. I just knew there was no way I could do what you asked, which was lay out a logical clear arguement. In some ways I agree with you. I don't think people who commit suicide usually mean to be selfish or hurt others. I've been close enough, and talked with others close enough, to know that is not generally what is going on (ok, yes those nuts who take out others first). But you started out saying "if people want to die let them". Most people who are seriously depressed can get better. And so I think we should try to stop people if we possibly can. Because even if suicidal people don't mean to be selfish, it is very painful to those left behind because they know they probably could have gotten better and now there is no chance.
I am sorry about your friend. And we are all in deep trouble if we there is a rule that we can never offend anyone. Purposely and meanly, no. But there would not be any way to be honest about our struggles if we worried too much about that - there are too many people on here. So back to my original question. Are you doing Ok?

[morrison]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

louise;143928 wrote: Morrison, please do not go off by yourself. I was not offended and I would much rather deal with someone who has your attitude than "they will go to Hell" etc. My upset was not with you. When we try to stop drinking we get more in touch with some of the reasons we drank in the 1st place and suicide has been traumatic for my family. I just knew there was no way I could do what you asked, which was lay out a logical clear arguement. In some ways I agree with you. I don't think people who commit suicide usually mean to be selfish or hurt others. I've been close enough, and talked with others close enough, to know that is not generally what is going on (ok, yes those nuts who take out others first). But you started out saying "if people want to die let them". Most people who are seriously depressed can get better. And so I think we should try to stop people if we possibly can. Because even if suicidal people don't mean to be selfish, it is very painful to those left behind because they know they probably could have gotten better and now there is no chance.
I am sorry about your friend. And we are all in deep trouble if we there is a rule that we can never offend anyone. Purposely and meanly, no. But there would not be any way to be honest about our struggles if we worried too much about that - there are too many people on here. So back to my original question. Are you doing Ok?

louise. I'm doing pretty damn good. Thanks for your feedback. I have better conversations with strangers on here, than the normal idiots I associate with. haha. I'm an idiot too most of the time, but I have my moments. Your post did kick some ass, and I agree. If we can help people that are down, why not? I would love to have my lost ones back. But, I find I ue the word "I" too much.

[louise]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

Glad to hear you are doing well. We must have different definitions of idiot. I didn't mean to upset anyone. What do you mean you use "I" too much?

[morrison]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

Louise, I just talk about myself to much. That is what I meant by I. I have to try a new style of writing. I am going to start another kick ass thread though. This one is going to be goood!!

[louise]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

Look forward to seeing it.

[SKendall]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

Morrison, glad to see you.

Your thread does encourage some serious thought.

It becomes a moral and a religious question. Popeye said it well when when he raised the question of death row.

I have never had anyone close to me commit suicide. I have known people to be without life while still living. A friend of mine had her sister in law commit suicide in a very careful, methodical way. Cleaned the house, arranged the will, prepaid the bills, etc. She is still not over it 10 years later. I think a lot of her anguish comes from the fact that she couldn't "fix" her and felt "betrayed".

We can never imagine what is in the mind of people who are in this frame of mind. We just can't, unless it's a drink/depression thing and maybe some of us have flirted with the idea.

I believe in life, but I don't believe in suffering. I remember following Elspeth Huxley who was the child in Flame Trees of Thika. She did amazing things as did her parents and lived a very full life. At 82 she was diagnosed with cancer and died with the help of the Hemlock Society, or a similar organization.

My step son is an oncologist and will often over-prescribe giving the patients some kind of an alternative - he was raised Catholic, but when you are an oncologist and see the suffering on a day to day basis the goal is to stop the suffering rather than the ego-driven stay alive at all costs.

My mother hid the fact that she had ovarian cancer because I was starting a new life in the U.S. and felt that I would be pulled if she divulged it to me. I learned on the day she died, I flew there but didn't make it before she passed, but that was her choice. She spared me her diminished condition.

[morrison]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

SKen. Thanks for the reply. I guess all we can do is hope our dead freinds are there when we get there too. They better be ready. I've been eating my Wheaties. How sweet to see them again. How sweet.

[SKendall]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

Hi Morrison, there is a website for lost pets called The Rainbow Bridge, I think it's at petloss.com or something close to that. I have 2 very old dogs and will be lost without them but someone told me about this site. Hopefully we all have a Rainbow Bridge

[lucky 2.0]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

The Rainbow Bridge!!! Yes, a GREAT site, painful but ok. For anyone who has lost a pet or knows it is pending, it is helpful, in my humble opinion.

[Ripley]

Jack Kevorkian is Out!!

Hi again

to respons to Skendalls point about not being able to "get over" a loved one's suicide.

In my case, my friend, 'B', was a close family friend. He was staying with my brother andmy brother's heavily pregnant wife when he left one morning, wieghted his pockets down with my brother's freeweights and threw himself into the Thames river in London. My brother loved this man dearly- he was his Best Man at his wedding.

We, friends and family, have agreed that this was 'B's choice, his right. That he must have been in a place where there was no alternative open to him. That living was more painful than not living. He could not be "fixed" by us, even if we had known the extent of his pain (which we did not).

This is not to say that there has not been any grieving - there has, of course. But the acceptance of B's right to take his own life has made his loss easier to bear.


Rip