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**lizker** · December 3, 2015, 06:50 PM

I'm a chronic relapser....This is my tenth or 12 th quit. My first quit lasted 3 days. The second lasted 17 days....then 30 days, 10 days, 47 days, 57, days, 130 days, and the last one. These are the ones I can remember. In all of them, the common factor was the people I surrounded myself with. My best friend is also struggling. Every time I would get around her, I jus could not help it. It's like this powerful compulsion to drink. I had to move across town to resist the influence. Over time, friends no longer have the power to pull me in. I still go to parties that I once was terrified of going...I also noticed that cravings were a powerful pull. I started to address cravings with nutrition. Taking a veggie protein shake EVERY MORNING, first thing was a game changer. I was no longer wrestling with cravings all day long. Eating healthy foods like salad and fish also helped tackle cravings. Nowadays when a craving hits, I automatically take an inventory of my eating habits that day and I always notice that I may have missed something like drinking enough water, didn't get enough protein or veggies. Stressful situation used to have me running back but now I think about how I would cope if I was locked up or in rehab or somewhere where I have no access. I turn to prayer.
My relapses always come back with vengeance. Crazy stuff happens. On the brighter side, whenever I relapse, my mind automatically starts to convict me to stop. I rarely want to keep drinking. I beat myself up so bad that I get back into quitting mode right away. I have a good feeling with this quit as I never, ever want to go through what I've been through.

**idefineme** · December 3, 2015, 10:32 PM

Addy, I want to thank you for starting this thread. I've only been around here consistently a little over a month, and can't seem to make it stick. The most I did was 9 days this past month, then it's been a day or two or three, then relapse again. I thought roll call would be helpful, but I quit doing that partly because of shame and partly because I wonder if it kind of puts enough pressure on me to want to rebel, so I drink. I'm still trying to figure it all out.

I'll be following this thread for sure. Thanks again, Addy!

**All done drinking** · December 3, 2015, 11:24 PM

Liz and Idef,

I posted on NN a while back about a one time occurrence I had where I was suddenly hit with an overwhelming desire and craving to drink. I had never had that experience like that - that just came out of the blue. Now, if I had a drink or two, I would get an intense craving for more so I know what that feels like, but I had never had something like that just come out of nowhere and hit me like a ton of bricks. I think the experience gave me more clarity that even if we have the common denominator of having a drinking problem, we are all afflicted with different levels or degrees of how bad it is for us. I personally would never have to take antabuse to quit as the amount I drank was small compared to many others, and infrequent drinking episodes, yet I still had problems from drinking that could be as severe as what anyone with a problem could have. I easily could have gotten a DUI or could have lost a job or friends, I was just fortunate that I didn't get caught or circumstances worked in my favor. So, who am I to judge someone who relapses time and time again. But, where do we draw the line with pulling someone up from their bootstraps when it's time 100? I don't have the answer. It's always good for folks to at least be on day 1 again and not have returned to just doing as they please without regard to quitting or at the least trying to minimize it. The focus has to be how do we prevent the constant relapses in folks and perhaps the more folks share, the more insight we can all gain as to the triggers, causes, & things that go wrong.

For me, losing the support of A.A. was a major factor for me. Online support wasn't around then. So, with that being said, I fear for folks who are trying to maintain sobriety and then just disappear from MWO without hearing about the fact that they've found a different support group elsewhere and that's why they're not posting. I have a personal friend who recently quit and did not want A.A. or online support. Said she was going to do it on her own. She used to text me how many days she had AF...now I haven't received a text with a number count for a long time. Probably because she can't do it alone. I know that's someone's signature line here...forget who...one of the Mathews? But this is impossible to do without support and encouragement from others who are in the same boat. Just noticed your signature line Idef and I like that one too. "Don't be ashamed of your story. It will inspire others." In a nutshell, I think that's what I've been trying to say here.

~Addy

**starty** · December 4, 2015, 12:50 AM

I recently posted this on the Relapse in Retrospect thread....

Around my 6th AL free anniversary I started drinking again. I now feel ready to look at why that happened.

My first 3-4 years sobriety were very supported by my activity on MWO. I also had quite a few friends from MWO that I would see in real life. This meant that recovery was ALWAYS in the forefront of my mind I guess. When people in my peer group started drifting off to pursue other aspects of their lives and I did too I think I lost sight of what was really important. I had been given a management position at work that was incredibly demanding. In fact the job I have been in for the last 4 years is unbelievably stressful. My pill usage really escalated in the past 3 years for both personal and professional reasons. Where I used to take them occasionally for mild stress I started to take them daily and was very quickly well and truly hooked. I justified my pill usage by saying that it didn't change my behaviour just took the edge off a little and of course no one knew.

As the months passed, the pills were not doing what they should and my usage increased dramatically. I was still not able to relax or lose that constant stress feeling. I was not posting on MWO, I was not really in touch with the people that I had met there and was not reading or really thinking about recovery any more. At my work they are big drinkers. Much younger than me and all loved to go out for a “session” Of course I began to feel I was missing out on something and along with the stress was looking for a quick fix.

I had tried to motivate myself into healthier habits like eating well, exercise, meditation but I guess ultimately I was feeling a bit lonely and lost. My brain was allowed to wander and tell itself that there was another thing I could do to relax, unwind and connect with others. Its soooooo stupid what we tell ourselves when our guard is let down. I have lived through horrific stress without resorting to drinking in my years of sobriety. My mum dying, being made redundant, my marriage going through a horrendous patch. All these things I came through without AL. However, in 2014 a bit of loneliness, a feeling of drifting and not having much purpose, tiredness and stress took me right back to the bottle.

I remember the day so well. Mr Starts and I were out walking the dogs. I out of the blue said “I want a beer” Hubby said no, you really don’t and I countered that I really did! Convincing him and myself that I was in total control and this time it would be different……Of course it never is. I would always be engineering visits to the pub, going out to lunch (in a pub) citing stress as to why I needed a bottle of wine in the evening. It got to the point where again, I was drinking in the morning, in my lunch break and every evening. Although I wasn't completely incapable I was putting so much away. Not that I didn't get incapable on a few occasions though. A work do was horrific and I embarrassed myself. I have fallen over with the dogs and hurt myself. All the time kidding myself I was in control!!! Of course the pills went through the roof. They simply were not working and I think I must have been spending in excess of £300 a month on all my addictions probably more. Every few months I would go through a horrible withdrawal from the pills and say never again. I would use AL to “help” me come off them which of course did not help and I was constantly in a battle of depression, anxiety and guilt. Another lie I told myself was that I couldnt give up both substances together. It would be too hard, so I figured the pills were the worst and AL would have to stay to keep me sane. I cannot believe that I was telling myself these things after such a long time sober!! I also felt that I would NEVER be AF again. I had kind of given up. I really thought it was too late….so what changed.

Well I met up with Chillgirl. She was here about 6 years ago and is still doing great. We have kept in touch on Facebook and seen each other from time to time over the years. I met her and told her I was drinking again. She was so very shocked. I didn't expect that. Also I heard myself telling her how it wasn't a big deal, how I wasn't drinking that much and how I was in control. She didn't believe a word of it although she didn't tell me at the time. I think meeting her, and talking about it was my catalyst and wake up call. When I met her I was about a month off the pills still feeling rubbish and quite depressed. I had been to the doctor who had increased my anti depressants a few weeks prior and I really couldnt see a way of feeling better. I even told the doc I was drinking too much but he didn't pick up on it.

So now, at two months off the pills (bar one week with toothache) and 5 weeks off the booze I am feeling soooooo much better and more hopeful that I have felt for a long long time. I am still VERY nervous of how my mind can change in an instant but I guess we all feel like that. The more distance I put between myself and ANY mind altering substances is going to be the key for me I think. However, I can never ever say I am out of the woods because those trees can come crashing down so very easily.

I do help that this might stop even one person from going down that rabbit hole again.......

**NoraC** · December 4, 2015, 01:17 AM

Starty - thank you so much for writing this. :hug:

**Mentium** · December 4, 2015, 07:24 AM

I am a chromic relapser too. My last period of sobriety was for ten months in 2014 when I attended AA. I never felt comfortable going there but that isn't any sort of excuse. One day, as so many times in the past the idea that I wanted a drink more than anything I could think of simply overwhelmed me and it felt as if nothing - certainly not willpower could defeat it. The sense of relief, as well as self disgust, when I have that drink is overwhelming too. And in my case that is the beginning of the next cycle of drinking until I am going half mad with anxiety and all the rest of it.

So one of the reasons I came to this forum was because there is a busy and supportive area dedicated to baclofen (in the Medication Research and Support area) and began taking it. Unfortunatey for me I didn't seem to get on with it for one reason or another, so I'm backing off at least for now.

But I digress. In the mean time I have stumbled upon SMART recovery who now have meetings in this country (the UK) which are relatively new. They also have on-line well organised meetings. But - and this is the point of this post - they are big time on CBT - changing your thinking and thus your behaviour and devote quite a lot of their training, as they call it, to that way of thinking. Here's an extract about relapse prevention:

"Ask and answer the following questions:

1. Question: Do I have to give in to the urge because it is intense and hard to resist?
Answer: No, I don't have to give in. Because the urge is strong, it would be easy to give in, but I don't HAVE TO. I have had urges that I did not give in to, therefore it must be possible to resist.

2. Question: Will it be awful to deny myself by not giving into the urge?
Answer: No, it won't be awful. It may be quite unpleasant, but unpleasant is not awful, it's just unpleasant. If I don't give in to the urge, it will get weaker and come less frequently. If I do give in, the urge will stay strong, be harder to resist next time and show up more frequently.

3. Question: Is it really unbearable not to give into this urge?
Answer: I don't like the way it feels to deny my urge, but since it doesn't kill me not to give in, I can keep on resisting. (Remember, individuals drinking large amounts of alcohol may need to go to a detox center when they first stop because the sudden end of alcohol really could be injurious.)

4. Question: Am I somehow entitled to be able to give up using without strong urges to go back to using?
Answer: No! I don't have a note from God, my mother, SMART Recovery group members or anyone else which entitles me not to have strong urges to use. It may be unpleasant to resist some of my urges, but no one gave me a 'get out of unpleasantness free' card.

The DISARM method allows the individual experiencing the craving to carefully and rationally answer a few key questions. The results will help the individual to understand that the urge truly can be overcome, and that as success is experienced, the urges will be less strong and will occur less frequently."

That's just an extract. Much more to be found at: UK SMART Recovery

**All done drinking** · December 4, 2015, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by starty View Post

Starty, Thank you SO much for sharing this again. Even though I unintentionally started a redundant thread, we can't get the word out there enough how important it is to work hard every day no matter how long we've been AF. In fact, with our history, you 6 years, me 7 years, it is somewhat scarier for the long term AFers as it is easier to get complacent and just too darn comfortable with our quit. Then that little voice starts up in our ear of "Just one...you can handle it." "Look how long you've been sober, one drink won't hurt you now". Yadada.

Around my 6th AL free anniversary I started drinking again. I now feel ready to look at why that happened.

My first 3-4 years sobriety were very supported by my activity on MWO. I also had quite a few friends from MWO that I would see in real life. This meant that recovery was ALWAYS in the forefront of my mind I guess. When people in my peer group started drifting off to pursue other aspects of their lives and I did too I think I lost sight of what was really important.

I am wondering if you drifted away from MWO at that time as well (online). How fortunate for you that you had actually met some folks from here, but life goes on and people get busy, and truly, when we've been AF that long, some of us start to think we really don't need the support anymore.

I had tried to motivate myself into healthier habits like eating well, exercise, meditation but I guess ultimately I was feeling a bit lonely and lost. My brain was allowed to wander and tell itself that there was another thing I could do to relax, unwind and connect with others. Its soooooo stupid what we tell ourselves when our guard is let down. I have lived through horrific stress without resorting to drinking in my years of sobriety. My mum dying, being made redundant, my marriage going through a horrendous patch. All these things I came through without AL. However, in 2014 a bit of loneliness, a feeling of drifting and not having much purpose, tiredness and stress took me right back to the bottle.

A lot of members here post about AA's H.A.L.T. Are you hungry, angry, lonely, tired? So easy for any of these things to allow us to feel that booze can fix the problem. Even though you were able to deal with really difficult things before without resorting to the bottle, you had lost your support group that reminded you why not to do that. I appreciate all of the good things others post about the healthier habits, Lizker with her shakes, NS with all of her health info, Gman with his meditation and Eastern philosophy thinking. So important for us to seek out those healthier diverisions and try to think about that rather than booze, but...I get it. All of the best intentions go awry sometimes.

I remember the day so well. Mr Starts and I were out walking the dogs. I out of the blue said “I want a beer” Hubby said no, you really don’t and I countered that I really did! Convincing him and myself that I was in total control and this time it would be different……Of course it never is. I would always be engineering visits to the pub, going out to lunch (in a pub) citing stress as to why I needed a bottle of wine in the evening. It got to the point where again, I was drinking in the morning, in my lunch break and every evening.

This brought up many feelings for me. Some folks here would have the spouse jumping for joy if they said they wanted to drink again, so things are much for difficult for others in that particular regard. I like how Byrdie and now J-Vo have warned their spouses about never listening to them if they try to say they can drink again. It's even easy to even fool the spouses after years of sobriety. They probably want to believe that we can do it too, miraculously control it now. What a joke when we think about it but so many of us get pulled back in.

Well I met up with Chillgirl. She was here about 6 years ago and is still doing great.
I remember her name although I was delusional at the time and thinking I could "moderate" my drinking so didn't read many of her posts. With her permission can you let us know if she continued support in another way as it sounds like she is maintaining her sobriety. I know there are other online groups like SMART, Women in Recovery, etc.

... I can never ever say I am out of the woods because those trees can come crashing down so very easily.

I do help that this might stop even one person from going down that rabbit hole again.......

Beautifully said as the trees come down so fast we don't know what hit us. How can this post not help someone else? It will help many. New folks reading it and old ones who are struggling and thinking that maybe they can fianlly now have one too because they've been sober so long, have a great resource to come to - to remind them why they should not. Thank you so much for sharing such a heartfelt and helpful post.

~Addy

**All done drinking** · December 4, 2015, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Mentium View Post

That's just an extract. Much more to be found at: UK SMART Recovery

Thank you for another resource Mentium! There are a lot of concepts about AA that people don't like. The fact that they label themselves as "alcoholics" is a big one, and of course a lot of folks take the spiritual part as too religious for them, and many definitely don't like the powerless concept, so this group is a good option for folks who don't like AA. I actually tried to find one where I live but they don't have one here so you're lucky there's one you can attend. I love the CBT thinking (changing how we think about things in order to change our behavior.) You also don't have to make a choice between there or here. I still attend A.A. here and there but come here (to MWO) more often.

I am wondering if there is anything you've learned so far from them that could help you when the next big craving happens for you. 10 months was a long time to be AF and then the tree fell. With the skills you are learning from SMART, what would you have done differently to have prevented that tree from falling?

~Addy

**NoSugar** · December 4, 2015, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by All done drinking View Post

p.s. Editing this as I just realized I am re-inventing the wheel as NS started a thread a while back called Relapse in Retrospect which is the same theme. Sorry, gang. I even posted there a couple of times but completely forgot it existed! Well, we have two places now to run to - to help keep us strong!

Here's a link: https://www.mywayout.org/community/ge...etrospect.html

**Mentium** · December 4, 2015, 12:38 PM

I tend to agree with all the points you list about AA. I found it increasingly difficult to square a rationalist (and atheistic) view of the world with some of the precepts and judgementalism one can often find at AA. Having said that the two longest periods I have been AF were with them. I think for me its power is in the fellowship one can find with other problem drinkers, all supporting each other.

I don't think I'm really qualified to comment on SMART and relapse prevention from personal experience however. I'm new to SMART (and to this, hopefully long term) period of AF life. The section I posted just stood out for me because it offered counter arguments to the sorts of wheedling the old lizard brain comes up with when it really misses the booze. My last lapse, which led to drinking too much for almost a year followed the death of my father and pressing that big F**K it button. Of course it would have been far more of a salute to the decency of the man if I had stayed sober. But my addiction didn't see that.

The on-line SMART meeting I attended last night was an eye opener too. Very effective I thought. One can attend as a guest too by the way if anyone wants to poke around. The forum isn't half as good as this one though!

Originally posted by All done drinking View Post

Thank you for another resource Mentium! There are a lot of concepts about AA that people don't like. The fact that they label themselves as "alcoholics" is a big one, and of course a lot of folks take the spiritual part as too religious for them, and many definitely don't like the powerless concept, so this group is a good option for folks who don't like AA. I actually tried to find one where I live but they don't have one here so you're lucky there's one you can attend. I love the CBT thinking (changing how we think about things in order to change our behavior.) You also don't have to make a choice between there or here. I still attend A.A. here and there but come here (to MWO) more often.

I am wondering if there is anything you've learned so far from them that could help you when the next big craving happens for you. 10 months was a long time to be AF and then the tree fell. With the skills you are learning from SMART, what would you have done differently to have prevented that tree from falling?

~Addy

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