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[Arial]

Hi all,

Have just read an introduction to Buddhism and also started the hypno tapes from RJ - I know it's a stupid question, but what is the difference between hypnotism and meditation?
Thanks!

[Popeye]

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Hi Arial,
I just looked up some definitions.
I think they explain a little.

Meditation describes a state of concentrated attention on some object of thought or awareness. It usually involves turning the attention inward to the mind itself.

Hypnosis is a process in which critical thinking faculties of the mind are bypassed and a type of selective thinking and perception is established.
I hope that helps.

[betty boop]

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WOW, Popeye,

Have you swallowed a dictionary tonight?

Love & Hugs xx

[Arial]

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Thanks Popeye,

I tried looking for definitions but not enough information in my dictionaries! So very simplistically, meditation is internal and hypnosis is using external influences or directives, is that right? For anyone who practises meditation, is it purely a state of mind or do you use it to make changes, change your mind set for example - the hypnotic tapes are trying to re-program your mind, I suppose, for lack of adequate vocabulary to explain it - the book I read on Buddhism seemed to be suggesting that through meditation you could 'improve' in some way or make changes - would this be through 'reprogramming' or something else? Can I ask how you use meditation yourselves - or are there any books you could maybe recommend to read??!

Just some initial ponderings - any of your thoughts would be much appreciated!
Thanks,

[nancy]

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from another beginner

hi

maybe we can hear from some more experienced people on this.

i just started learning about buddhism. but my impression is that you are not supposed to be "reprogramming". you are meant to discover what is already inside you and to practice focusing on single objects. you become aware of distractions, neuroses in your mind that distract you from the object, and you aim to become at peace with these distractions without judging them, then gently bring yourself back to the object of focus.

there isn't supposed to be right or wrong in this. that would defeat the purpose. self-discovery is the beauty of it.

when i have meditated, i just focused on the breath. and after each exhale, i counted a number, one to 10. then if you become distracted you start at one again. in later lessons you learn to label the distractions and let them go. in this way you improve, just by being in touch with yourself and not judging it or thinking it is a fixed thing. there are also meditations on kindness. and there is a meditation called Body Scan that brings you in touch with the feelings of all your body parts. improvement is a byproduct of the practice, because once you realize things in life are impermanent, you become more patient and better able to accept the challenges life brings. if someone leaves you, it isn't the end of the world, because the nature of the world is that it is always changing.

so, in short... you discover yourself and your body in a closer way. you let go of things that are distractions. you realize that life is always changing and trying to hold onto everything is fruitless. and this knowledge brings you a sense of peace as a side effect. that is just my perspective as a beginner.

re-programming is more like self-help with a specific purpose to change the mindset or the unconscious. I have been hypnotized before and I couldn't feel my arms during the practice. the hypnotist inserted specific ideas into my unconsious mind. you see how different that is from buddhist meditation where you are mainly observing your own mind, though you direct your concentration.

good luck and let me know how you do! I highly recommend taking a class at a buddhist center. you can hear all the questions of other beginners.

[Determinator]

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Good question Ariel. I'm no expert but there are many types of meditation and hypno. And then there are things kind of related but unique like Chi Gung and Tai Chi and certain types of yoga too... If only I were independantly wealthy I'd have the time to study it all!

[Arial]

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Thanks Nancy - you might be new to it but you've certainly put a lot of thought into it and expressed it well! I have a lot more reading to do but I like your interpretation - it certainly seems a very positive 'tool' (I'm not sure that's the right word but I can't think of another at the moment).

D - I hope you're feeling better soon :l - Oh so true - time and money are cruel task masters - I have a two week holiday now to get some reading in!

[mimi]

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Not a stupid question at all. I don't know if there are studies which look at differences in brain-wave activity between the two, but my understanding is the difference in intention and personal experience between the two. Meditation as I understand it is a quieting of the mind. Different kinds of meditation are done with eyes open or shut, with different instructions about whether to focus one's attention on something. The kind I am most familiar with, zen, does not have a goal, (outside of putting one in touch with one's connection to bigger one-ness). Hypnosis is a trance state, usually guided by another person who talks through the process. I suppose a guided meditation is very much the same as a hypnotic session. Least that's my best guess on it all.

[satori]

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Warning: LONG - boring!

I am no expert in Hypnosis - but have meditated for many years.
Mimi, I am into Zen meditation also.

Please do not start a war over this - it is just my personal take on things.
I totally respect everyone's right to their own beliefs - I am not trying to convince anyone of anything - this is for information to anyone who might be interested.

Hypnosis - as far as I can see is a situation where persons trained in hypnosis can gain "control" of another person by placing strong suggestions into the mind of a person susceptible to suggestion.
ie the hypnotist appears to be able tp make suggestible individuals believe strongly certain things. Now - I may be wrong - but I believe that the person being hypnotised has to believe (even subconsciously) that the hypnotist has that ability to control them.

Meditation has nothing to do with trying to change anything - it is simply observing what goes on in your mind - and this can lead to understandings about the nature of the mind and body.
Once these understandings are reached, it is impossible NOT to have a changed outlook - the changes HAVE to happen - and they do all by themselves. One's entire perception or "reality" changes.

It is a bit like these puzzle pictures made of dots. - you can look at them for hours trying to figure out what it is - and eventually you SEE - AAAH - it is a cow.
From then on - every time you look at that picture again - it is OBVIOUS it is a cow - it couldn't be anything else.

Some realisations made while meditating are a bit like that!
Most of them are a lot less interesting!

When I meditate, I am simply observing / being attentive to what is going on in my mind and in my body.
With practice, and with time, one is able to see that our usual understanding of "reality" is flawed.
Our whole relationship with what we normally see as the "outside" world (ie not US) is biased by the notion developed from earliest childhood, that we are actually self contained separate individuals. (separate from "outside" I mean)

We have the impression that there is an "I" - a concrete separate "me" - and often we spend an inordinate amount of time and energy (and mental "anguish" - buddhists would call it Dukkha - often translated as "suffering") in protecting this "I" from "the rest" of the universe.
We spend most of out waking hours in internal mental discussion with ourselves - usually along the lines of
"Mr.S was so rude to me today - how dare he treat me like that I am much more intelligent than he is - he made me look small in front of my co-workers" etc etc.
Or - relevent here - " I really need a drink - why cant I have a drink - it is so unfair - everyone else will be drinking, I wish I didn't have and alcohol problem" etc etc,
Or "I am worthless - my sister/brother/pet squid is so much more together......" etc

Usually we are always trying to protect the comfort of the "I" - trying to avoid unpleasant things that we do not like - or achieve situations we do like. (ie we are totally driven by "craving for good experiences" or "aversion to bad ones" ) and we all "suffer" if things do not go our way.

Now - with meditation - it is possible - simply by quietly observing this internal mental dialogue to begin to SEE that this is the case.
It becomes possible to observe the thought "I REALLY need a drink" as JUST a thought - that is all - with practice it becomes possible to observe the thought - and let it pass by (oh there goes that old "I need a drink thought again").
With time - and the realisation that these thoughts, and millions of others, come and go all the time, there is less inclination to become caught up in the usual mental anguish that used to develop - based on the thought "I REALLY need a drink" - you can just notice it and let it go - WITHOUT getting caught up in it, and the train of anguished thought that usually follows.

The real insight comes with even more practice - eventually when the mind becomes still enough and the thoughts are no longer passing by, you begin to have glimpses of the nature of the place that your thoughts used to inhabit.
You come to realise that there is no "I" to be found there - and therefore no "I" you needed to protect all these years.

We are actually confusing out internal mental dialogue with what we think WE are!

Look at a picture of you as a baby - If I ask the question who is that - you will answer "it is me"
If I question this - look at the baby - now look at the adult - how can that be you.
The usual response is then - well that "WAS" me.

The thing we usually call "me" does not exist - it is constantly changing second by second.
I am not the same I that I was last week - every cell in the body is replaced every 7 years or so - thoughts come and go - cells divide, cells die - you and I are simply ever changing energy.

Sure, It takes the form of a relatively long lived self sustaining set of chemical and electrical interactions - but there is nothing concrete or constant there. We are just some little energy eddies in the changing energy field of the universe - and as such we are not separate from the rest of the universe.
A bit like little whirlpools in the "stream" - "we" last for a while then return to the "stream".

The Buddha himself did not talk about people - he called them "stream"

Once this insight is gained - it becomes almost farcical to keep up the mental "anguish" and ego protection habits we normally fall into. There is nothing there to protect.

Hope this is not too scary!

Take care


Satori
xxx

[satori]

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Determinator;117072 wrote: Good question Ariel. I'm no expert but there are many types of meditation and hypno. And then there are things kind of related but unique like Chi Gung and Tai Chi and certain types of yoga too... If only I were independantly wealthy I'd have the time to study it all!

Determinator - Just so happens I have studied Tai Chi for years too.

Yes - I know - I am not your stereotypical Scotsman!

If you want any info - just ask


Satori