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    #16
    Just believe....

    The worse you think you are...

    the worse you are. This is an observation made by the addictions counselors who wrote "Over the Influence". A book I've mentioned in other posts and one that has been really helpful to me. These counselors preach harm reduction and working with individuals as individuals rather than lumping them together into some formulaic catagory. I can't stand that stuff, you know, "if you have more than 3 drinks per week you are a heavy drinker", by whose standards? Most "normal drinkers" I know will put away at least 3 beers at a game or picnic, etc and no one would consider them heavy drinkers. I am careful to not evaluate myself against standards that others or authorities set. I do understand the desire to have a measuring stick, esp when you really aren't sure what's too much etc., but ultimately you have to set it for yourself.

    Anyway, in the book the authors make the statement and observation that, "the worse you think you are the worse you are." Of, course there is the desire to not "be in denial" or to assess your stuff accuaretly, but in that case one needs to look at it as just data to be evaluated. Invariably these counselors had noticed that thinking you are a raging alcoholic or junkie creates a self-fulfilling prophesy. Tell yourself that you can't stop and most likely you can't. Tell yourself that 1 drink is too many and 1000 isn't enough and that's how you'll behave. I am not totally discounting the physical or spritual component in our lack of moderation, I totally think there is an imbalance at work, all they were sugeesting and that I believe also is that self-talk can play a big part.

    For example, I stopped by the tavern and had 2 beers with a friend last night. I wanted to have 1 and no more than 2 as I had to drive in about 2 hours, I was worried I wouldn't be able to control myself, but I did and know that in the past there have been times I have been able to do so. I had the whole worst case scenerio playing, I would keep drinking and wind up either loaded or at least drunk and I would have to cancel my appointment because I couldn't drive etc, then I stopped that and tried to remember all the times I have been able to moderate and focused on that. Part of me wanted another, part of me realised the beer just made me mildly buzzed, but more tired..beer often does that to me. So I could be like to myself, Oh you f*** up you had drinks during the week and you said you didn't want to do that, see you can't control yourself and you'll wind up with a dui or falling down your stairs or on skid row, etc, ad nausium or I could be like whoopie! I only had 2 beers and stopped. Each experinence and our self talk about it sets the stage for our next experience.

    Trust me, when I am writhing with a hangover I ain't about all this positive talk stuff. I just realized that after Karma's first post on the thread and my thinking about the smoking bit I talked about earlier...I realized that over time I had managed to moderate a substance that is deamed more addictive than herion. Not perfectly, but to a really manageable level. And this is through what I might term aware acceptance, just being more aware of what, when and where I was doing something and just accepting it, rather than fighting it all the time and feeling deprived. Any way, this thread has just been and hope will continue to be great and I really thank Karma for coming back and sharing. It has really offere and validated alternate ways of viewing and doing things. Cheers

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      #17
      Just believe....

      short on time

      I am short on time tonight. I wish I could respond to everyone...and hopefully I can at a later date.

      Southern....coming off the drug for me became about my cortisol level. Honestly, I think that is what was to begin with anyways and Zoloft does not help that. The supplement Symphora helped me with that and directly goes after the corsitol production. I took that when coming off the Zoloft and had some withdrawal, but nothing like in the past. Yes, you still have to do it slowly. Now if I feel mild tension an l-glut usually handles it for me. But if it seems like a big attack is on the way I take 1 symphora. It is nice to now feel it and go...cortisol...and take care of it naturally. And usually within a 1/2 hour the symptoms that would have eventually sent me to bed or drunk...are leveled off and I feel fine.

      Today I woke up early and even worked out...which made me feel great all day. Abs or not I NEVER could work out in the early am.

      Lotus...I know how it can be....I am not abs most days. But I no longer drink myself into a stupor and can barely function the next day. If I functioned before it was as if a corpse was just going through the moves. Now I am fine and me...even if I drank the night before. But before I could never stop before stupor set in.....

      This all just went I through.....not any reccomendation to anyone.

      Karma

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        #18
        Just believe....

        Karma I really like your story and am intrigued about your experiences.

        I think your post and responses show how different problem drinkers/alcoholics can be and I don't think there is a one size fits all approach. I feel calmer and less prone to drinking since I radically changed my diet to avoid things that lead to too many swings, supplemented with omega 3 fish oil (essential for good brain functioning) and B vits. I have to believe that this has made a difference, plus books that help me see life more realistically and take it easier on myself.

        Out: I really get a lot out of your posts. I think that low self esteem does play a big role for some of us, including myself. Drinking reinforces low self esteem and I think if you have low self esteem you inadvertently keep going back for more by over-drinking. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy and one lacks the confidence to get out of it, the care for the self to move on. However,there are also important biological factors, the body craving the substances it is used to getting and the damaging effects of alcohol abuse and malnturition on the neurotransmitters esssential for mental health.

        I think on this thread we see the positions of people drinking to relieve psychological issues. I don't know if that is the case for others but we don't need to all be the same.

        Thanks again-- now to get that book.

        Comment


          #19
          Just believe....

          thanks nancy

          I think things are multifactorial almost always. I am very into investigating the biological and chemistry related issues or this and other things I cope with. I have posted links to several articles in the research section and other posts about that. I can also get myself really stressed when I start t think about not just how our biology effects our drinking, but how drinking effects biology. Biology effects belief and belief effects biology. I am not strictly a mind over matter person, sometimes that doesn't work or isn't enough etc. As a matter of fact I hate it when people reduce everything to simple will or thinking, as a chronic painc sufferer i remind people that while we definately have a mind-body we also have a body-mind, the mind effects the body, but the body also effects the mind. On a good day, i try to see and understand it from both directions. Sometimes if in whatever direction you work..inside out or outside in any change can create the catalyst for the next one. That's what i try to balance and what i am still figuring out.


          As a side note, i think I have figured out why taking the L-Glutione under the tounge works...it takes so god damned long to dissolve that the craving is gone by the time it's done! whatever works. cheers

          Comment


            #20
            Just believe....

            Out:
            I agree with what you wrote in your last post. Things go both ways. Mental things affect body and vice versa. It is interesting to me that people with depression and anxiety are not routinely asked about their diet. I know from experience it is possible to be drinking 10 plus cups day of coffee and then seek help with anxiety or depression and get some pills. Then it comes out in therapy that you are pumping yourself up with loads of caffeine all day, anxious at night and drink to relieve anxiety.

            Clearly, depression is linked to deficiency of serotonin but antidepressants don't resolve the underlying issues that caused the depletion. I am especially interested in omega 3. I read that these essential fatty acids, found in fatty fish, are essential for good brain functioning. Of course we are going to be deficient. How many people get enough salmon and tuna? and then there are the mercury scares.

            I should add that I think antidepressants can be life-savers (never tried the ones the people on this thread were on though), truly life-savers and I would recommend them to anyone with a debilitating case of depression. I just wish a more holistic approach was routinely applied,so all options are considered. And if there are natural approaches with fewer side effects, why not try them?

            Since coming to this site, I have also read about alcohol and serotonin and can see how it contributes to depression... no doubt for some it causes depression or anxiety that wasn't there before.

            It's very interesting really.

            nancy

            ps, i read the research you pointed out in the research threads and found it really interesting.

            Comment


              #21
              Just believe....

              Out

              I agree...if I could have minded myself out of it...I would never had landed here or in AA. Biology does have a lot to do with it. What I learned was that just because I may be pre-dispositoined to something does not mean that I have to let it rule my life. There are ways to get that biological factor over rode and the balance you need.

              And good Lord if I had to hear one more time "pray and God will take the craving the away"...and my response was "I prayed my ass off"...and then their response was "well, God just hasn't seen fit to take your craving away, then you must not want it enough".

              Trying to mind our way out of things can make it worse not better.

              Karma

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                #22
                Just believe....

                LOL-- I always thanked God for helping us invent something as nice as wine and microbeer!
                Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence.
                Talent will not-- nothing is more common than
                unsuccessful people with talent.
                Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
                Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
                Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
                The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve
                the problems of the human race.
                -- Calvin Coolidge

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                  #23
                  Just believe....

                  oh my gawd, karma you are cracking me up. the whole aa thing is coming back to me now. those rooms of shame. it is funny to me now as i look back. the whole point was to live a balanced life but i found myself living a sober but life filled with low self esteem, guilt and shame. it was just not a very fun or full filling life. and wow, talk about a self righteous group of folk. the rooms i was in was just not a fun time. so, happy to not be there anymore
                  :welcome:

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                    #24
                    Just believe....

                    the memories are fading

                    For the record I am not bashing AA....I am speaking from my experience. I did two stints in the program. Once in 2004 for 9 months and then 2006 for 7 months. The thing was that after a period of time I could look around the room and not one single person "had what I wanted". Actually, they had a whole bunch of what I didn't want.

                    I have been in several rooms...and the only laughter was about drunkalogs. I heard some really outrageous ones....but you know "don't compare".

                    After a clear head I realized that the responses were pretty weak....and never ask a question because then you are in denial and incapable of being honest with yourself and they will pray for you. You can not be in denial and incapable of being honest to actually walk through the door in the first place.

                    I have cut all ties with AA....but now they are saying that I was never an alcoholic to begin with. Who knows maybe they are right....

                    Karma

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                      #25
                      Just believe....

                      ah karma. i wasn't bashing aa either. it is my personal experience and one of 9 plus almost 10 years. so, i just am happier now in the mwo and i've ordered the book you spoke about. i did appreciate the steps about cleaning up my side of the street, etc. and forgiveness. there is always something for me somewhere. so you know take what you need and leave the rest. i do appreciate your being here karma. i only check in to this thread and my usual 30 day with luv and gang. but your experience really did sum up mine. and i'd say to anyone do what works for you. it just wasn't my cup of tea. have a beautiful day and again thank you for posting. i'm ruminating and will have something useful to say soon.
                      :welcome:

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Just believe....

                        Oh my...

                        you were never an alcoholic in the first place because you can moderate now. You're right they may be right, i guess it all depends on what you consider an alcoholic, there is no line in sand when it comes to that term and it is a term I think is used too frequently and unecessarily, but anyway what does crack me up is...if you can moderate now you were never an alcoholic because to proram people that would mean that the program was fallable and they don't call it "the program" for no reason. What cracks me up is the flip side, the questions asked to determine if you are an "alcoholic" are at such a low threshold that any "mildy problematic drinker" would be labeled an alcoholic by their standards. If it doesn't work for you, you are in denial, not working the program or not an alcoholic, so that they can be in complete and utter denial about their failure rate.

                        If you consider yourself an alcoholic and that is helpful great, If you are in AA and it is helpful, great, if you don't care to label yourself that's super too. Whatever works. I have nothing against AA as an idea or in it's core principles, esp since I have come to terms with my own experience of God, one of my sister's is in it and having the support and friends who don't drink is probably saving her life, but you can't make any observation about them that deviates from their belief or else...and I just can't stand that personally. I have family memebrs who are fundamentalist zealots and I can't stand their "my brand of christianity is the ONLY way and so much supierior to yours...you heathen!" I am NOT challanging or insulting anyone's belief here I am just asserting my feelings about certain bahaviors. Right, wrong or indifferent I like being honest about my thoughts and observations. I have my own spiritual beliefs and I comfortable enough in them that I don't care really if they are critisized or if they are not for everyone. When you are comfortable with what works for you, you no longer care if others believe the same as you...and not in that fake way, "fine fine, I am comfortable with my way and when you hit bottom you'll see that I'm right, stuff." oh ranting can be too much fun, i must stop. I am in a good place in spirituality and somehwere I hope to be in my relationship with drink. Again, this is such a great thread and so inspiring that you have found your place with all this Karma.

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                          #27
                          Just believe....

                          ranting

                          Ranting is good and that is what I was doing. It hard to have a place to speak your mind about AA good or bad. Especially, bad. People who have never been in the rooms have no idea what you are talking about. Those who are in them don't want to hear a single thing that you may have to say. Many even who have left still have some of the brainwashing going on in their heads. I know I hurt some people when I tried nicely to tell them that I had to cut ties with them....I could not allow that type of thought in my life anymore. In ended in a heated battle with my old sponsor. She wanted to remain friends as long as I wouldn't say anything even remotely negative about AA. It is a long story, but it ended with me saying that we couldn't be friends. What saved her in her mind...almost killed me. Maybe not physically, but emotionally. I explained that since it was something that depended on each of our well being that we needed to just cut ties.

                          One big thing I did gain was letting go of all my deep resentments. I always said that I forgave my parents for certain things...but they would still resurface at times. When doing the 4th step for some reason I was able to let it go. But it was also my first step into letting the past be the past and focus on the present.

                          I did let go and let God. The further I traveled God did seem to put information in my hands that led to me to where I am now...namely that book. But it was other books, information and people as well.

                          I also don't really regret one miserable second that I suffered. Because of it...I am who I am today and I am grateful to be where I am...knowing who I am and liking me. I could not get over the number of people in AA who would have 20 years and still just plain out not like themselves.

                          Karma

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