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[stollies1]

New Today

Hi there Janka,
As always great advise from all and you certainly have come to the right place for help support and advise.I can honestly say I would not have gotten this far without this site and the wonderful members and I hope you find it the same for you (I'm sure you will ).
Just remember, the journey your starting is yours and no one else's.Perhaps you should suggest to your husband that if he had someone constantly sniping and belittling him when he was dealing with his problems, he may not be so far down the track today!
I had nothing but support, love and understanding from my partner and I couldn't have done it without him (well....I could but it would have been a really crappy ride :H ).
You're not alone going through this and even if he's not there for you...we are!
Each day gets better..some better than others...but it does get better.
Good luck and I'm looking forward to seeing you here often...
Love Victoria xxooxx

[janka]

New Today

Hi and thanks to all of you for your ideas, encouragement and spirit. I am okay today and have accomplished the following: woke up at 6:45 am; took out and fed animals; made tea, checked my e-mails and this forum; washed up; got dressed; wrote my kids a note; did dishes; threw the laundry downstairs; got to work by 8:15 am; accomplished many tasks there; talked to my kids throughout the day; took the city bus home because my husband left me at work (he was supposed to give me a ride); came home and spent some time goofing around with my daughter; did more dishes; cleaned kitchen counters and stove to a sparkle; took out trash; checked/answered my work voice/e-mails; watered plants; made homemade mac & cheese, tea and am having a cigarette and talking with you -- I am usually a very active and energetic person. I hope you are all well or at least know there are both good and bad days and no feeling last forever. Whoever told me that my husband may avoid being here (with me and his own beloved kids) because he was afraid for his own sobriety was extremely insightful -- I have spent years trying to understand him and have much compassion for him -- but that thought never occurred to me. Very wise!!!! I will once again be kind to him, not confront him in any way and not participate in any argument or discussion no matter how riled up he may be when he gets here or avoids me. I hope to cool things off, yet again, take good care of myself and big babies, and stay encouraged for me and my babies -- I almost always took the very best care of them -- and work tonight or about another hour. This is my normal routine for the most part. I appreciate all of you!! and will check in in a while
I really apologize for taking up so much of your time and feel so grateful to all of you. Take good care

[Chief]

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Welcome Janka, No need to apologize for taking up our time. We all love this site and probably spend too much time here because we are such a close family. Sounds like you are trying to figure things out for yourself. This is a great place to do that. You will get a lot of different opinions from people with a lot of years and different experiences under their belt. We can help you quit drinking if that's what you want to do. You have to want it though. Keep reading and posting. We can help.. Don

[nancy]

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Well, it sounds like you are dealing with a number of difficult problems.

I really hear you about the zero tolerance/dictator approach. Tough love does nothing for me. a compassionate curious attitude by an objective person/counselor is very helpful to me. And compassion from a loved one is priceless. Judgement does not work for me, just makes me want to rebel.

I know of some people/reformed drinkers who behave like your husband. I attributed this to fear that they will go back to it and also that the zero tolerance worked for themselves. they had to get tough with themselves to make it work. Also, AA teaches that this is an incurable disease and that people often have to hit bottom before they quit. And they hear a lot of horror stories at their meetings. This acts as negative reinforcement for staying sober. What that means is that if they see an alcoholic person, their feeling may be that this person is a ticking time bomb and something horrible is going to have to happen to make them quit.

maybe by coming here and trying to address it or cut down you will naturally come to believe that you want to be abstinent.

Like someone else who posted, I am also curious about whether you have a support system of your own to get your feelings out.

[janka]

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Hi Nancy and thank you. I really appreciate your insight and wisdom. I do not believe in the disease theory of alcoholism ... sorry it doesn't make sense, and perhaps the idea of disease is a motivating metaphor for some people to quit -- AA and any fear-based approach freak me out, although I truly understand these things have worked for countless people and that's super! I grew up in an environment of encouragement and fear works on me in bad ways. I like your second paragraph especially -- it makes so much sense!

Further, prior to these past 5 years I was essentially abstinent, although occasional social drinking was okay and harmless. I do not know what I expect for my long-term future, but for now, I will be abstinent. I learned to drink beer on ice, alone at night doing laundry, talking on the phone, in tea cups, so my children, especially, wouldn't notice.

Last week was a horrendous one for me, for a variety of reasons, one of which drinking daily to relieve tremendous anxiety and stress and marital difficulties over a prolonged period of time. I do not want that to happen again, for sure.

Yes, I have friends and some family who actually listen to me about the context of all this and support me; however, my husband, my older brother (17 years older) are graduates of AA and have a very dictatorial, commanding, single-sided view; and my sister-in-law (an MSW working with retarded children for the State), has similar views, although she is perceived by the other 2 as the resident mental health expert here. These people have hurt me so deeply on many fronts, especially by exaggerated and escalated any idea of even tiny alcohol consumption in front of my teen children to terrify them!!!! That really kills me the most ... I almost feel I was propelled to drink even more to defy them (childish, I know). Like say, F$%* you!!!!

Anyway, I am abstinent for 3 days, hung out with my kids, worked, cooked, shopped and did chores. I saw my husband today, he disappears and later called him to find out he was at work -- I believe that. How can he leave his kids home alone with a wife who is drunk all the time, as he believes (I was not, but was a binger to greater and greater degrees)? He doesn't even call them on their cells or at home to find out what's going on. At all times, I know where they are, call them periodically, or they call me since forever (except when they were tiny they were with me or my parents). How can he be so harsh, critical, judgmental of me -- call me "irresponsible," whatever and not have a clue about what his kids are up to, while I do? I would really like to understand that ... he adores them from a distance I know, but how can he feel justified in crucifying me, especially in front of them???? Any clues would be great ... I would truly like to understand.

Sorry I talk to much, and would appreciate any thoughts. SO many thanks to all of you

[nancy]

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Hi again,

i feel the same way when someone tries to control my behavior. I want to do the opposite. I think that is just human nature. but that's also self-destructive.

I hope someone who is married comes along to offer some more advice. I am single. It just seems to me that this alcohol issue is a bit of a front for other problems. As you said, if you were that bad it would not make sense for him to leave you alone with the children. You have two separate problems it seems, one is the alcohol problem and the other is this marital problem. He uses your drinking problem to control you and perhaps to keep you thinking you are bad all the time. Drinking does that anyway so if you add jugement to it, it's almost unbearable. He is so much on the offense. but now you are starting to question his behavior and that is good. why is he neglecting his spouse and his children? maybe that should be the question.

if you get your drinking problem under control he won't have you under his thumb anymore. you feel so guilty that you might have trouble demanding basic rights in your relationship.

one more thing, i spent a lot of time thinking about what other people think about the problem and finally came to the conclusion that the judgement of at least some individuals was really something not worth listening to or dwelling on. I was bigger than what they said. So for example, i had to get critical with some. i hope I don't offend anyone reading, but the views of some of these people who were reared on AA were not very intelligent to me. they were dogmatic, full of simple slogans, and did not seem to be very scientific. I don't believe the disease model. Also, some of these people are very repressed because they had to stop cold turkey and against their will because they think it is an incurable disease. some of these people in my opinion are not even true alcoholics. more likely they had a mental health problem with the symptom of sporadic but bad substance abuse.

anyway, i started to wonder why i was having these arguments in my own head about their opinions, which i did not agree with and which did not stand the tests of intelligent analysis. when people say things you don't agree with just have compassion for them in their brainwashed state but glad anyway that they are not having the horrible problems that come with drinking too much.

no doubt this might be easier for me than you as you live with your husband and it is obviously a much closer relationship.

I suggest you figure out what you think and get very strong about that. Why do you want to change? he might miss not having your drunken experiences to call attention to. and then you should probably see a marital counselor and not let him get away with throwing all the blame on you and your problem.

nancy

by the way, if he is freaking your children out when you just have a tiny bit of alcohol, seems like he might be doing that to hurt you and it's unhealthy for the kids. if it gets bad, they might need some family counseling.

[janka]

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Hey Nancy, i really like your thoughts. anyway I didn't drink for the first 15 yrs of marriage, and he was an absent father and hsuband with a big chip on his shoulder. we went to see 3 marriage counselors (I was so excited) ... the first was a great psychiatrist who I was seeing, and my husband was invited to a session, and got so loud and agressive the doctor told him -- sir, you're wife has some issues, but I think you may have been damaged --- my husband stormed off! he walked out on his own therapist when I was asked to join, because the great guy told him to calm and quiet down because my husband said something 'macaroni, I'll only eat macaroni at 5;30 each day, and my husband walked out; another one and after 6 limited sessions with another great lady ... she told him he was not "ready" for counselling. He just could not see outside himself, and is unwilling to try any counselling now. I do not understand what he's afraid or even protecting.

So, my current drinking problem only masks other things, I think, and even when I am and was sober he was a bear. i think he's just immature and really lacks human compassion at any deep level.

I like the way you think and appreciate the thoughtfulness you have extended. I don't know ... In 1996(?) we nearly divorced but I allowed a reconciliation.

Any thoughts?

[nancy]

New Today

Well it seems like you probably know what is going on yourself. Sometimes in relationships we give people breaks and overlook their character flaws or just get so used to them we take them for granted. I have often done that.

The way you describe him... he sounds very difficult to get along with. and if he is difficult to get along with in your sobriety it's going to be much more difficult while you are grappling with this alcohol problem.

So you have seen the way he behaves in professional offices and that the counselors disapprove of his behavior. So these are flaws and you can't take his criticisms of you at face value. Right? so why are you mulling them over as if they had some merit? It's an easy thing to do, we give people more credit and control than they deserve. (also, alcoholism causes guilt and so we lose faith in ourselves and start to seek out criticism and punishment).

If he was offering you some rational objective support or constructive criticism that would be one thing. His input is damaging. You need to start discounting the irrational things he says and recognize he obviously has some issues. You have your own issues though. You don't need his permission to view them in a particular way and you have no obligation to see them through the lenses of himself and his family members. who knows what kind of trauma underlies their thinking and their own substance abuse problems.

The best thing you could do for yourself is get to grips with this problem and if you did it for 15 years you can probably do it again.

Can you focus on your children, with whom you get along? and focus your sobriety efforts on yourself and them?

Nancy

PS i hope i don't sound too harsh toward him. This post is my gut reaction.

[janka]

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Thanks again Nancy ... I know all of the above all too well ... i do focus on my children and my demanding work when I'm sober and I drink. I am an especially good mother, friend, wife, boss, co-worker when sober (which I have been intermittently), because I have a passion for life and the poeple who surround me. I am frustrated, but okay ... I really love your support. I hope you are okay as I know essentially nothing about you. I have to try to sleep, as I have to go to work early and have loads of work to do. Thank you, and take good care

[nancy]

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So it sounds like you have a lot of good things going for you. I think you have very many positive motivators for getting drinking under control or eliminating it. You know how good you can be without it. I respond a lot better to positive motivators. Weknow you have to take care of ourselves to feel good again. That takes self-esteem. We don't want to see ourselves passed out or yelling in a drunken rage. So anything that builds up your self-esteem is good. Personally, it makes me feel very bad to have someone label me.

it sounds like your marriage has been very lonely and unsupportive. I don't know how you repair it after all that has transpired but nothing's impossible.

As for MWO, we don't know each other here but we get to know each other under our pen names. I really have met a lot of nice people at this website, people who are responsive and sympathetic and who have tried a lot of different things to tackle alcohol problems.

I was really needing a non-judgemental place to sort this out when I found this website.

So I hope you become part of the MWO crowd and we can see you improve over time.

Take care,
Nancy

[Lotus]

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Hi Janka

Welcome to MWO. Like others I'd suggest your read RJ's book. It will help you choose what route you want to take and achieve your goal.

Reading through your post it seems you have a lot going on. I find it helpful to speak to members here and my friends as I do not get the support at home. I hope you find it helpful too.

All the best.

Mandy x

[look]

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Hi Janka, Welcome, I hope you stick with this site for a while.After 35 yrs of beer and God only knows how many tries,I've managed to stop for a while,and it feels so good. Keep posting and reading.Good luck

[beatle]

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Very interesting thoughts all, especially that last interchange between Nancy and Janka. (Oh, Janka, sorry, don't think I ever gave you a proper welcome. So WELCOME!).

Anyway, I agree with most of what Nancy says, and she says it better than I ever could. I know most of us here share her sentiments, and yours, Janka, about AA and its approach and philosophy. (i.e dogmatic, inflexible, etc.).

I just wanted to share that I have had a similar problem with my spouse. I have been drinking so long that after a while I blamed myself for everything. He is moody and gets stressed easily. I have blamed this on myself, because I have so often been at least somewhat intoxicated, and he knows it.

What I found after a number of fairly long sober spells under my belt, is that he is the same way when I am not drinking. This makes it even harder to stay sober, as his stress is one of the main triggers to my desire for alcohol. In many ways, my life is better since I have been AF for a majority of the time, but in many ways my life is actually worse because it is so much harder to bear his moodiness and sudden outbursts without a nice drink to calm me down.

The bottom line, though, as the MWO gang has made so clear to me, is that I am doing this for myself, not JUST for others. I have to keep reminding myself that, because I also feel sometimes like I am a better mother when I have had a little to drink-- more patient, less easily upset. However, since one drink leads to two to... six, I can't allow myself that luxury.

Anyway, my spouse is a very understanding and loving person, very involved with the children, so my problems are not to be compared with yours Janka (I've got my own-- like a job I hate, but that's another story), just to note that the guilt about drinking and taking on the blame for things is not always well deserved, but it is part of the territory.

[Cinders]

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Beatle,

I have the same problem dealing with my husband when I am sober. His acerbic wit and sarcasm get to me. It was drew me to him but sometimes it hurts, too.

I recall Diamond talking about how her relationship changed when she no longer was drunk all the time. Now her spouse is dealing with a "different" person.

All in all, though, I think I shall forge ahead and learn how to constructively deal with my feelings of anxiety and angst when Greg starts in on me. Perhaps sober, I can tell him calmly not to talk to me that way, whereas drunk, I would just smile and nod.

Please don't misunderstand me, either. Greg is a good and caring husband and person. He's about as perfect as I am.

Cindi

[Guest]

New Today

That makes you and hubby pretty darned perfect then, Cindi!!!!

Love,

Starlight Impress x