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**Guest** · February 23, 2006, 07:26 PM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

vmdunn....I don't think he is done or ready yet. So, if you really love him and want to stay with him, plan on getting some help for yourself and codependency issues. Al anon can help you with this issue....not sure of any other source. There is a great book by Melodie Beattie called "The Language of Letting Go" that might help you. As far as him getting help.....he needs to do the work himself. Sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear. Take care of yourself! Gina

**Guest** · February 23, 2006, 07:41 PM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

However, after thinking about this a little more, it's not really fair of me to say "he's not done yet", as I don't know if I am really done yet. You could be my husband in "disguise" for all I know. I know I've put him thru a wild ride myself! The other stuff about codependency is true. My husband hated Al Anon mtgs....didn't find it very productive. So, he chooses to be my well behaved codependent. To each his own! Good luck! Encourage him to come on board and join us....we are a lot of fun! Gina

**Guest** · February 23, 2006, 08:33 PM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

vmdunn,
It seems as though you have done so much for Him, yet he chooses to do nothing for Himself. As we've all heard a million times, but it holds so true, making the choice to change is a choice that has to come from within the individual, not from any other person, no matter how much that person loves them and no matter how much that person tries. It's sad, and it stinks, but it's true, true, true. Trying to MAKE a person change, even if they may at first agree and it is in their best interest, can tend to push them away. It seems as though this is what you are experiencing. I'm sorry. What a situation!

I like Gina's idea of you researching some support groups/books for spouses/friends of those with addictions. RJ just posted some in response to one of my posts for my husband to check out as a matter of fact. Let me try to go find them, then I'll come back here and let you know.

You sound like a very caring, loving, and giving person. I would hate to see you get hurt in the process. I hope everything turns out well!
Take care
Becca

**Guest** · February 23, 2006, 08:46 PM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

OK vmdunn,
Look under the "just getting started? meet others who understand..." link under Discussion Forum. Find the thread called Day 1, then look down a ways to a post from MWOJewell. She has a bunch of links there for al-anon type support that she gave me because she's the best ever and I am forever grateful to her and I'm completely smooching up right now for some reason.... hee hee!!
Anyhow, on a serious note, I truly hope this helps. Please keep us informed and know you can come here for support any time too.
Becca

**Guest** · February 23, 2006, 09:01 PM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

vmdunn;

Welcome to the board! Sounds like you need the earth to stop spinning so you can get off!

I hope everything works out.

LOL
Brandy

**Guest** · February 23, 2006, 09:11 PM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

VM:
it is so good that you are in touch with yourself and questioing. as a mental health care professional, previous AA person and a struggling woman to get back into a better life for myself what i say i hope is of help; you can also ignore it. In AA they say you have to change your playmates and your play pens" to stay on your program. If he is not threatening your program of progress - the rest sounds like it is just someting you don't want in your life. Let none of us fool ourselves that all we have to do is change the 'drink' and the rest of ourselves will stay the same or not emerge. Also from AA is "to thine own self be true". If you feel threatened either physically, the interferece of your goals, or the possiblility of joining him - be true to your self. Is your love for this man greater than any dreams or desires yuo might have of your own? Are you afraid to be alone? Do you think there is nothing more for you out there?
V: He has his own journey to follow - and like you and I - if it doesn't come authenticaly from the inside - the desire to change for oneself; thre is little anyone can do. Also - do not blame HIS choices on yourself , either as a failure or otherwise. He has to reach his bottom. For some of us it takes trying 1,2,5 times to REALLY want it where we will go to anylengths to heal. It is an individual process that rarely can be interrupted orinfluenced by another. He may be a wonderful person - just like all of us are here: but there are thousands of other good people out there who have not come to this point yet. Maybe if he lived at K-Mart he might want to give it a try - who knows; but it can't keep making you feel bad. As you have been so successful with this; you can be successful in anything you choose. Recognize your strength and desire and keep your progress always as #1 and in the forefront of your thoughts and priority. What can be more painful than the low self esteem, hidden drinking, self-loathing and dishonesty that comes from where you are walking away from? I TRUST YOU - that you have whatever it takes to make the right decision for yourself and greater better for yourself. After all you are here. Believe in yourself. No one can give you the absolute answer...you already have it. You WILL be in my prayers tonight to hold your strength, believe in yourself to follow the path you KNOW is right for you and what you want and feel. It is OK to be uncertain - but pray for clarity and it will come. Thank you for sharing. Elle

**Guest** · February 23, 2006, 10:25 PM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

Beating a dead horse

Elle, Brandy, Becca, Gina,

Thanks for the speedy replies and all the great advice.

I was hoping to get a little more insight into the connection between the mywayout program as you all have experienced it and what he is doing. Did you start slowly and haphazzardly or did you jump in with all wheels turning--diet, exercise, tapes, topomax?

Actually, I'm pretty grounded. I don't drink and have a little time and energy to deal with "J" right now, whereas his family has totally given up on him. I am totally nonjudgemental about this condition and I heartily commend all of you for the struggle you all endure everyday. The famous lawyer, Roy Shapiro, is trying to put a top notch team together after the death of his son this year--geneticist, doctors, research scientics, etc. I say, up with serious research and down with useless condemnation.

J is going through a lot of changes right now since he has changed his environment and even a state. So he is not around his drinking buddies any longer--to his credit. But by the same token, you bring your problems with you wherever you go--it's not about anybody else.

He is kind of a delicate soul it seems to me--he lives in the sorrows of the past, cries a lot in genuine anguish. His dad who was his best friend, hunting and fishing buddy, and big man in town-- died the same day that J found out that he himself was to become a father. He suspects foul play from the gold digging stepmother. He fell apart and the relationship with his girlfriend did as well about a year after the birth. He has been trying to get his family back ever since, but she won't have anything to do with him which adds to his misery.

As for me, I have goals that I plan on accomplishing, there is little possibility that he will keep me from them or that I will be sucked into drinking with him. I'm more of a chocolate shake kind of girl--and even the occassional social drink causes me grief--stomach ache, headache, you name it--so I'm blessed, so to speak, that way. And no, I'm not afraid of living alone--I have since my husband died 20 years ago and left me with a 2 year old. I'm a pretty tough cookie.

We figure we met for a reason, so while our paths are crossing, I just figure I'll try to do my best by him. And who knows, maybe he is really here to teach me something. I'm not really much of a romantic anymore. Life is kind of like Wonderland to me--"My, my, people come and go so quickly around here."

It is really great to have all of you to bounce all this off of. I hope you don't mind me being in here. I'm learning a lot. For those of you with significant others, what is the best supporting role for your mates without crossing over into co-dependence--that's the last place I want to go. And yes, I will check out suggested links.

Thanks all,

vmdunn

**Guest** · February 24, 2006, 01:09 AM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

Re: Beating a dead horse

Dear Vmdunn,
You sound like a really great person.. Wish I could meet you. Your posts are so very thoughtful and I can really get a feel for what you're going through as well as what your friend 'J' is feeling too. What might be helpful is for you to read the posts under "Just starting out? Meet others who understand" in the thread called "Hiding alcohol". This is something I have never done but it gave me a terrific picture of what it must be like to be doing that. It illustrates the sheer illogical compulsiveness that forms part of so many people's drinking. It seems to me that most of the people posting there are living in loving relationships and can't imagine why they're doing it! I got a lot of good laughs from those posts too. It's brilliant! Thanks guys.:rollin
My experience is of living with familiy and partners who condemned my drinking, at times were tolerant and other times less tolerant, sometimes bying me drinks even when I didn't want to drink! It created a dynamic where I felt a lot of shame and depression.. and at times it was almost as though they needed me to be 'wrong' somehow. Relationships can be so complex sometimes.
There are a lot of other contributing factors such as diet, blood-sugar & insulin levels working on moods & cravings which most people never take into account. It is so very hard for non-drinkers to comprehend why we struggle with it so. This program is the first I have ever found to address the nutrition issue and I draw your attention to pages 98-99 where amino-acids & other things are discussed which help reduce withdrawal and depression symptoms. I have had a fair bit of depression myself and know how that feels - it is a really bewildering thing to be experiencing and there's no way I could explain it to anyone. Even drug & alcohol councillors thought I was just making excuses!! Which only lowered my self esteem even further.. Condemnation all round.. even when I was asking for help!!
There are other men on this site, although they take a little finding. But bottom line, if 'J' isn't interested in the program then it's not going to work. So my suggestion is that you have a good look around, read as much as you can, start talking to him about it (especially the funny bits) and maybe he'll get interested. He may find someone he identifies with. Women tend to be more talkative, so maybe that's why there are less men here.. but it's worth a try.
Also, I started a thread called "Depressed... Waiting..." where I talk about diet, mood swings.. and you might find something in there of use. Sorry, I always ramble on a bit.
Wishing you & J all the best,
Hope you keep posting,
MFM

**Guest** · February 24, 2006, 01:31 AM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

Hi,
Read your story and my only advice could be for you and your situation, is that you need to decide. How much do you love this man, his bagage and his troubles. If you want this relationship then you will need to have alot of pateints and wisdom with a whole lot courage. Remembering that this will be a long and bumpy roller coaster. Some of the ride will scare you death you will think I want off why did I get on, On the other side you will say that was fun. All of the anexity and fears that we have. If you want to be with him then you really need to seek help on how to deal with, handle and most of all yourself. Remember sometimes we just can't change what we want to. Even when we know it is the best thing. Good luck and if you love him and want to spend your life with him. Then remember to always have strength for the both of you because you will need it through the good and bad times. Hang in there.

**Guest** · February 24, 2006, 04:19 AM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

Helping a Partner

Hey, I just cut & pasted this for you out of "Best of the Boards".. Gives another perspective.. it's by HadEnough:

"I hope you're still checking in for messages on this question. I think there are many ways in which you can help him, some of them directly, some of them indirectly. I do think, as has already been pointed out, that the most important first step is for you to understand the psyche and nature of the addiction. If you've never suffered through an addiction, it can be extraordinarily daunting to try and help someone live through breaking one.

"For someone with an addiction, you spend your life planning around it. I exaggerate some for the sake of my point, but I'm sure others on this board will be sitting there nodding their head in agreement when I say...you wake up thinking about alcohol, you go to work thinking about alcohol, you have lunch thinking about alcohol, you think about alcohol as you mentally take inventory of your liquor cabinet on your drive home to make sure you've got enough for the evening, the first thing you do when you get home is pour yourself a drink, then another, then another waiting for 'magic click' to happen; you decline social invitations because you'd rather drink alone, and when you do go out, you have a few extra drinks beforehand so you can look like a normal drinker; you bury your liquor bottles in the recycling so you don't let the recycling people know how much you drink; you chew gum so people don't know how much you drink; you promise yourself every morning you're not going to drink as much, and then break that promise; on and on and on the list goes. We plan our lives around drinking. That's how important and how much our lives revolve around alcohol.

"I'm not sure if it was on this board or in another conversation about something else, but someone likened alcoholism to being a little bit like a daily 'Sophie's Choice.' And, it is. For as agonizing as making that choice is, we make it every day, and every day hate ourselves for it.

"And just know that nobody is beating themselves up more for their addiction than your husband is. None of us ever planned to become addicted, and all of us would give anything to be able to roll back time and take it all away.

"If you can truly understand and sympathize with what that must feel like, then your compassion in helping him trying to deal with quitting will automatically be there.

"This is a very personal and very private disease made even more so by the stigma put upon it by our society. So the fact that he wishes to try on his own is not unusual. As well, many people (like myself and others on this board) are not well suited to 12-step or in-patient kinds of programs. And until MWO, there frankly haven't really been many other options. I believe very strongly in this therapy. It attacks the root causes of the disease and provides a broad balance of support tools to help you overcome it.

"Quitting drinking is fraught with both physical and emotional changes. It's a little like being sick, only on steroids. First, you have to deal with the physical withdrawal from alcohol, the symptoms of which can range from mild to severe. Thankfully that runs its course relatively quickly. But with that comes irritability, crabbiness and general anxiety. As any of our spouses or significant others can tell you, we are not the most fun people to be around during this period. I think what is most important is to treat your husband in the manner in which you know he most likes to be treated when he's feeling sick and anxious. Me, I'm a horrible sick person. I'm the kind that just wants to be left alone...don't coddle me...don't try to make me feel better...just leave me to my own devises. Everyone is different. I guess all I am trying to say, is don't make him feel like a patient unless he wants to feel like a patient. For me, the single biggest way my husband helped me was to stop drinking in the house, and just let everything feel as normal as apple pie. We didn't ignore it, we just didn't focus on it. I was already focused on it, and that was enough.

"I hope this helped some. Best of luck to you and your husband, and please let us know how it's going."

***
HadEnough

**Guest** · February 24, 2006, 05:34 AM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

Beating a dead horse

MFM and Haylee123,

Thanks for the reply.

J is a 6 feet hunk of gorgeous man. Unfortuanetly, he is passed out on the living room floor between the couch and the coffee table at the moment; he tried to get up off the couch and didn't make it too far. I just shake my head in wonder at what must go on inside that gorgeous head. Sometimes, I wonder if he's has a split personality.
He looks totally different when he is drunk--his eyes get hostile and glaring, a meaness overtakes his otherwise playful features. He smells like hell and looks like the devil crawled up inside of him. I wouldn't be surprised if he sprouted a couple of horns.

He definitley has a problem with depression as far as I can tell. I read a book called "Where the Roots Meet the Water" a true story about a guy with depression--very enlightening. J also seems to be geographically sensitive like the guy in the book. Perhaps he can't shift too far from his original magnetic imprint coordinates--who knows?

I have definitely noticed that every conversation all day long involves some referrence to liquor--it's 24/7 like you said. I believe, in large part, it's brain chemistry--a compulsive disorder, also diet and all other things mentioned play a role as well. That is why, I was attacted to this holistic approach. The hard part about this program, it seems to me, is that there are so many necessary things to do at once. I'm just curious why everyone seems reluctant to really say how they're operating their own program in real life. The only reason I'm asking is because, I am wondering if I am expecting him to be able to do more of it silmultaneously then he should be at first or are other folks having trouble getting the four wheels down on the ground at the same time? Basically--What can I realistically expect him to be able to accomplish the first month before I can declare that he isn't seriously trying? That really is my main question right now.

I'm not sure what the future holds for us at this point. I'm a nuturer by nature. I want to be of support, but I don't want to be an enabler. There seems to be a tricky fine line there. Trust me though, I'm no saint. A full two weeks of his incessant bitching about everything and I screamed "Shut the F--k up already" and shattered a glass in the kitchen sink for puctuation. He was a "good" boy the entire next day. Is that what it takes? Jimminy-crickets! I can't live like that.

Anyway, what did you all do on your first month in the program, and how long did it take you to get up to 300mg and did you actually get up to 300mg by increasing 25mg a week? Did you all really listen to the tapes more than a couple of times? What about that exercise? Did you do the All-One? Or did you switch to better tasting stuff? Just trying to keep it real,
Thanks
vmd

**Guest** · February 24, 2006, 11:42 AM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

Re: Beating a dead horse

Dear VMD,

I started the whole program on Jan 18th. Started with all the supps, cd's and 25mg of topa....jumped in head first so to speak...did great, cravings actually went away somewhat the first week. Whether that was my willingness for the program to work, the supps or the cd.s, topa I have no clues! I did great for about 1 month only had a couple of days with slips (my goal was moderation). I am up to 100mg of topa...Your friend J has to want the program to work is my feeling. It worked wonders for me when I wanted it to work. When I was working it as a whole! The cd's are a big help as are all the supps and the topa topped it off. But you still have fight with the boredom, metal cravings...figure out why we were drinking in the first place. That is kind of where I am now. I slipped and slided for a week or so, but I am getting back up! That for me is all I an do. Good luck to you and your friend. Hope I was able to give you alittle info on what you were looking for.
Take Care,
Tammie

**Guest** · February 24, 2006, 11:49 AM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

Re: Beating a dead horse

vmd...as I was rereading your post...Here is more info. Yes I do the Cd's as listed in the book. Sleep and Subl. every day, I do the hyno and clearing 3-4 times a week as my schedule allows. Excersise, not quite there yet unless you count, chasing kids, zillion loads of laundry, cleaning house...Regrading topa, you do have to step up gradually and he will start to see great results I think by 50mg...so people even stop and stay at 100mg because they don't need to step up any more...others need all 300mg. I am still at 100mg and will go up to 150mg this weekend, because I need it. Hope this helps,
Take care,
Tammie

**Guest** · February 24, 2006, 01:33 PM

When do you know you're beating a dead horse?

Re: Beating a dead horse

V-

I am going to take the hardline here.

This and any program is difficult enough to work even when you want it and those of us here want it-and we can tell you that this is so true. He doesn't want it right now and no matter how much you do-well I just don't think it will happen.

You have goals and dreams and a two year old. He is pining over a lost family and suspects his stepmother of murdering his father, and drowning it all in booze.

You sound like a wonderful person and unless J is your soulmate and you want to spend the rest of your life with this person and he wants to do the same, I think you should let him go. It is not your job to take care of him, but yourself and your two-year-old.

-Nina

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