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    On Serotonin

    I know this isn't how most people do it.

    But I'm using some time each day to research the biology of alcohol metabolism. I figure the more I learn what it does, the better I'll know how I can approach my own particular issues.

    I'm not intending any sort of agenda here, like being AF or Mod or whatever. I'm simply engaging an open inquiry into what factors are involved.

    Yesterday I was researching serotonin, which apparently is the root of mood, depression and cravings. I wrote down my impressions earlier this afternoon:


    Serotonin is a neural transmitter.

    Neurotransmitter: Our bodies are not like Star-Trek's "Data" or a Robocop. We don?t run continuous wires from our fingers to our brains. What we have instead is a chain of nerve cells. Each cell can transmit an electrical impulse within itself, but not across cell walls. So between cells, the signal is converted to a liquid chemical called a neurotransmitter. This liquid (or more accurately chemical bit) seeps from one cell to another, causing the next cell to ?fire?.

    If you poke a finger with a pin, your brain registers the pain. ?There?s a pin in my finger?, you say.

    What happened was a nerve cell in your finger fired ?Ow?, and then sent a neurotransmitter to the next nerve cell, which fired. Each cell all the way up the line fired and then transmitted to the next. On reaching your brain, the signal was received and parsed in several areas of the brain. The hind brain probably activated one or more reflex mechanisms to move your finger away from the pin, and also your adrenalin system to give your muscles more ?snap?. Your mid brain came up with an emotional response. And your fore brain engaged in the task of reacting, and analyzing a response and giving a verbal response, probably training your eyes on the pin and arranging further logical responses..

    Aspirin (and all NSAIDs) operate by shutting down some part of the neural transmitting chemicals. In the case of NSAIDs it is a chemical called cyclooxygenase and commonly abbreviated COX. By shutting down the production of COX, a nerve cell loses the chemical messenger needed to tell the next cell there is pain. So the nerves in your finger are still dutifully sending pain messages up to your brain, but along the way, for lack of COX chemicals, the next cell fails to get the message. Your brain goes on, blissfully unaware of the pain in your finger.

    Our body uses at least 60 different neurotransmitters. Some you will recognize: dopamine, serotonin, histamine, insulin, epinephrine, glutamate, taurine, and GABA.

    Serotonin is a neural transmitter.
    It works primarily on the mid-brain.
    The mid-brain is our root for moods, feelings, including anger and pleasure.
    The mid-brain is our ?animal brain?. It handles only primitive concepts.
    The mid-brain sits between the hind-brain, and the fore brain.
    The hind brain governs autonomic response like breathing and heartbeat.
    The fore brain handles logic, reasoning, language, and memory.
    The fore brain is the "big part", the mid-brain is small, and the hind brain is really just the top of the spine.

    The mid-brain has no memory, or logic, and can?t speak.
    It operates on a subconscious level.
    The mid-brain governs our mood.
    It happy, or sad, or depressed or joyful, satisfied or unsatisfied.

    I call my mid-brain my ?box of kittens? because you can?t talk to it, can?t reason with it. It just purrs or whines, depending on it?s own little perception of the world.

    The mid-brain uses serotonin as a neural transmitter.
    The forebrain uses dopamine as a neural transmitter.
    It?s a bit funny, that even within our brains, different structures use different chemicals for essentially the same functions.

    Alcohol increases serotonin in the brain.
    When you take a drink, alcohol goes into the bloodstream almost immediately.
    Within minutes, the serotonin in your mid-brain rises.

    By increasing the main neurotransmitter, transmissions in the mid-brain become amplified.
    But when a neural cell fires; suddenly it is ?heard? twice as loud by the receiving neural cell.
    Like the ?Shot heard around the world?, but in this case, the ?shot heard twice? is twice as loud.

    So good feelings feel better.
    But bad feelings can also get amplified.

    An angry drunk is just someone who gets a serotonin blast while his kittens are angry.

    The mid-brain cannot ?think?, or ?reason? or even ?lie?.
    It simply reacts to the sea of feelings and chemicals in which it lives.
    Interpretation is done by the fore-brain, the cerebrum.

    Alcohol has secondary effects on the serotonin system aside from just raising the ?volume?.

    For one, it overloads the system.
    Your natural body can?t make the amount of serotonin that is dumped in via alcohol.
    So this causes the receptor cells turn numb from too much chemical.

    (BTW - this is a gross oversimplification. There are in truth 4 different receptors and they act a bit differently under different circumstances.)

    For two, it puts the body?s own serotonin system off-line.
    Why should your serotonin production cells stay online if the brain is being flooded with way too much serotonin from an external source?

    Once off-line, it may take hours, days or weeks of lower than normal levels for your natural serotonin producing cells to wake back up and begin producing enough natural serotonin for your kittens to be happy.

    When the Alcohol intake ends, most commonly because you?ve gone to sleep, you have a number of problems with your serotonin system:
    a) Your serotonin receptors are numb from being over stimulated.
    b) Your body?s natural serotonin production is insufficient
    c) Lack of serotonin is associated with feeling depressed, empty, guilty and sad. That?s how you feel when you wake up.
    d) Serotonin is a melatonin precursor, melatonin is for sleeping. So without serotonin, your body can?t enter normal sleep patterns.


    These problems will remain with you for hours, days or weeks until you do one of the following:
    a) Stay sober long enough for your serotonin system to get back in balance.
    b) Have another drink

    Take a guess which approach your ?box of whining kittens? wants you to take? Heck, they have no memory, and no remorse. All they want is to get back to feeling good again.

    So on Day 2, your serotonin levels are so low, you are clinically depressed. You got a whining box of kittens screaming for relief. And you are going to try to fight them using memory, logic and reason?

    ***

    What would be nice, is to keep a constant serotonin high. Right? Feel good 24x7. Woowoo.

    I think we?ve all tried it. Have a small drink every two hours for day after day.

    Within a couple days, your whole serotonin sensing system ceases to function. You come to a point where no amount of more alcohol will increase serotonin in a way that satisfies your ?box of kittens?.

    So then you are clinically depressed AND drunk. Oh boy!

    ***

    What about balancing serotonin high against a level values, so it never goes low?

    Apparently this is what we do when we are younger. Our system recovers faster, so the down time is not equal to the up time. For most adults, however, factors intervene to equalize the down time, and even to make it last longer or be more intense than the up time. For most a good approach is to manage their serotonin cycles to even out the up and down times, thereby avoiding times of depression.

    There are a non-alcoholic ways to raise serotonin, although not all are very well understood. You?ll recognize this list:
    Chocolate
    Love (Falling in love, having sex, being infatuated).
    Doing something passionate, or that has great feeling
    Winning
    Eating (good food that makes you happy)
    Eating foods naturally high in 5-HT precursors, certain fruits.
    Eating a snack of complex carbs with NO protein (serotonin power diet).

    Unfortunately, none of these methods are as dependable as just taking in some alcohol, and they can?t raise serotonin to the high levels that alcohol can.

    Drugs/Remedies that may help/impact your serotonin system.

    Herbal 5-HTB a precursor to seratonin
    (The chemical formula for serotonin is 5-HT)
    L-Tryptophan: Basically the same as 5-HTB so don?t take together
    St Johns Wort ? May be a natural SSRI
    Topiramate ? MWO drug ? Topiramate effects on plasma serotonin levels in children with epilepsy.
    All MAOI drugs, which reduce the breakdown of serotonin by chemical means
    All SSRI drugs, which reduce the capability serotonin breakdown locations.

    As with Topiramate and SSRI drugs, there is evidence that impacting your serotonin system may allow you to drink but feel less effect, or less long term effect. There are also papers demonstrating that for some individuals, SSRI drugs may INCREASE alcohol cravings, instead of decreasing them.


    Some items for me to study tomorrow:

    1) Are there sources of cravings that are NOT involved with serotonin? Most research indicate that ALL craving comes from serotonin imbalance.

    2) For people long term AF, does 5-HTB or L-Tryptophan help reduce cravings?

    And for tomorrow I?m going to be looking at Dopamine. Apparently at the same time as enabling your emotional inner box of kittens, alcohol simultaneously shuts down your capability to reason. I?m ?so- surprised!


    Selected sources

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitter
    Cyclooxygenase - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Serotonin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Monoamine oxidase inhibitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    St John's wort - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    http://www.currentseparations.com/is...-1/cs18-1d.pdf


    Now on Day 5 AF and I like my Lemon juice with MINT!

    #2
    On Serotonin

    Wow! Haven't you been busy!! lol

    I really appreciate you putting all this out there. When I first got here, I spent hours doing research. I feel it really helped me get and stay sober. I was here 3 months before I started supps, because I too really wanted to understand the brain's chemical balance. Only then could I figure out what supps my particular body needed.

    I think educating yourself is one of the best tools you can arm yourself with when fighting AL. Good for you for not only doing so, but for taking the time to type all that out.

    If you are interested, there is some great advice that Wonderworld has posted regarding "Brain Cells". It's in General Discussion, "31 Days and Beyond" - page 4. Great article and link.

    Keep up the great work, Bossman! BTW, I will never look at a box of kittens the same way again! Thanks for the much needed giggle today!!!

    Love, Me
    :l
    Alcohol is simply the device between success and failure.

    Comment


      #3
      On Serotonin

      Please keep up the information

      Wow--I read your post and am so blown away. Great information. I am waiting for the next post when you tell us what we can do to cut down on these cravings. I have been trying what is already out there, and maybe I am hoping for a "magic bullet", but I haven't found anything that can help me as much as I need. I am on an antidepressant, but don't know whether it makes things better or worse. Thinking about trying the natural non-RX lithium,. but don't want to risk seratonin overload. Looking to your future posts for some good information. Thanks.:thanks:

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        #4
        On Serotonin

        I was hoping nurse, you could help me!

        I took Zoloft about 8 years ago. It numbed my moods. I think I abstained for a bit, but stopped doing Zoloft within weeks.

        For quick mood fix I like Valerian a lot. It tends to numb the raw edges pretty good. Unfortunately, just one pill hangs on for 36 hours for me, so it takes a long time to let it bleed off.

        I have more hope for the 5-HTP or for dietary methods to build serotonin. I've got some books coming on that. Maybe some good ideas there.

        The takeaway I get is that serotonin is a stasis system, and that each of us will feel best overall if we can maintain that stasis. Whether by going AF, or taking Tamo, or modified diet or whatever, each person may have a different solution to what is basically the same physiological problem.

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          #5
          On Serotonin

          Boss man, bravo thank you for the great info. I also can't Wait for the next post.

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            #6
            On Serotonin

            Thanks boss - you sure are the man! That was very interesting and explains a lot to me.
            Look forward to the next bit.
            BH

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              #7
              On Serotonin

              Well done on the research Bossman,

              LOL, i have also been doing a bit of research lately... I have run out of Topa, which I have been on for 13 weeks now and finances don't permit me to stock up again this month. After some long and hard thought and then research I have still gone AF this month without the Topa and to be honest I can't tell the difference. I am still taking my supps... L-Glut, 5-HTP and Kudzu as well as an arsenal of vits .... and I'm still not craving - food for thought!

              Alcohol also interferes with Essential Fatty Acid metabolism, causing a depletion of GLA ( an omega 6 fatty acid) Evening Primrose Oil. GLA is a key component of the human brain, so I also suppliment with Omega 3-6-9.

              Here is the link to the newsletter I have subscribed to which has been a great source of information in lay-mans terms The Way Up Newsletter : How to protect from damage of alcohol/alcoholism

              I'm looking forward to more posts from you.

              Dee
              "The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it"

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                #8
                On Serotonin

                Great thread!

                Comment


                  #9
                  On Serotonin

                  Thanks all for your kind words.

                  DeeBee you are right. I forgot to mention Omega 6. Thank you for adding the info on GLA and Primrose Oil.

                  I definitely agree on cost. Just my 5-HTP is $1 per day, which is much cheaper than drinking, but pretty high for an herbal supplement. If you aren't getting cravings, that helps confirm my suspicion that simply beefing up your bodies serotonin through supplements may go a long way ending the "need".

                  I'd like to continue the quest on the minimum supplements needed to keep the cravings at bay. If anyone has suggestions please chime in.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    On Serotonin

                    Fantastic information Boss Man. I am taking kudzu, lglut and omegas plus the general multivit and minerals. After 3 weeks af my anxiety went. I think my main cravings left a bit before this. I have been on prozac for 3 months as well.
                    Living now and not just existing since 9th July 2008
                    Nicotine Free since 6th February 2009

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                      #11
                      On Serotonin

                      Boss, you are doing great with this. Some other things to remember: the brain is a system, or (more accurately) a huge collection of systems within systems; and neurotransmitters operate within feedback and feed-forward loops... there is NO simple way to "add" more of a "good" neurotransmitter to make us feel better. Also, important to remember that our behaviors and our decisions (i.e., activities that are subject to our will) are undoubtedly the best way to (beneficially or negatively) change our mood(s), our neurotransmitter levels, and the structure of our brains. There is a TON of research about this; one of the things I do professionally is teach and monitor the literature on neuroscience, especially in areas related to wellness, mood and anxiety disorders.

                      The bottom line: taking pills (for mood/anxiety disorders, for assistance regulating emotion and behavior) of all sorts can be helpful, sometimes for some people in some situations... it can also make things harder later on, as the brain attempts to regulate itself in the presence of artificial pharmaceutical (whether "herbal" or otherwise) neurochemical manipulation. BUT behavioral (including mental) changes have no down-side; they change our neurotransmitter levels, our mood, and the structure of our brain with no negative "side effects." This is why I strongly encourage mindfulness-based interventions, exercise, etc. ....

                      best wishes,

                      wip

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                        #12
                        On Serotonin

                        Boss man, On the 5-htp what brand do you use and how much do you take?

                        Thank

                        Comment


                          #13
                          On Serotonin

                          Sothankful. I'm taking "Natrol" 5-htp "TR" time release, 200mg, from Walgreens at $24.99 per 30 pills.

                          However, I'm not saying they actually DO anything. I'm on Day 6 AF now, and obviously something is working great for me. But it may be that my research, which has forced me to wallow in really how messed up I have been for years, is working better than the dozen pills I'm taking this week.

                          As Work In Progress points out (Thanks WIP!), any attempt to use artificial means beef up or compensate any of our internal "statis" systems may end up backfiring, or worse, working for short term but setting up a long term imbalance.

                          So it's just something to try.

                          Another thing to try: A fresh Cinnamon roll from Good Harvest Bakery, with a small cup of Starbucks coffee; YUM. This is complex carbs, cinnamon as a mood enhancer, plus strong coffee AND caffeine. I just finished mine, and feel great taking this sort of "medicine"! Woot.

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                            #14
                            On Serotonin

                            WIP and Boss,

                            Exercise is a big piece of the MWO program. Hmm. Wonder why?

                            It is a great seratonin enhancer all by itself. Drug/Herb free.

                            Love,
                            Cindi
                            AF April 9, 2016

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                              #15
                              On Serotonin

                              Thank you, I think I will try and look for other things to feel better. Thanks Again

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