Newbies Nest

[Catbuddy]

Newbies Nest

Fin;1398656 wrote: Hey Cat, recognize this place?? Almost made it to Marin!

Here's the view from the other side (and me after a trail run).

Cat

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ag93nzpm2od5zu4/Headlands.jpg

[Alcoholic]

Newbies Nest

Fin: you are a man w many talents!

[Lavande]

Newbies Nest

Good evening all,

Hey Caper, nice to see you
Yes, I've done all sorts of reading, watched many documentaries & changed my eating habits.
I think I've been lactose intolerant for most of my life but something changed in me. Now I can't even tolerate walking past someone eating cheese :H Sad but true. A few years ago I also started reacting badly to beef so that's been off my menu as well. I eat a very small anount of chicken or turkey & my homegrown eggs but the rest of my diet is vegan. Damn easy way to lose a bit of weight while eating a LOT of food!

I hope everyone is snuggled in for a safe night. The weather is about to change here on the east coast thanks to hurricane Sandy working her way in this direction ~ swell.
A good night to all!
Lav

[change=freedom]

Newbies Nest

iamaquitter28;1398486 wrote:

Change: Congrats on day 1. You can do this like so many others on here have! It's hard and it takes A LOT of work but we all have it in us. Keep us posted on your progress!!!
Thanks very much. Day 2 has been easier than yesterday. I got out of the house for one thing, which really helped. :h to the kitty

lolab;1398512 wrote: welcome, change, dorothy, ginger - oh gosh, i hope I haven't missed anyone!
Thanks for the welcome lola

gingersnap;1398555 wrote: Today is Day 2, have been reading Kick the Drink Easily and getting some very clear insight from that. It is very thought provoking. I plan to come here 2 or 3 or more times a day. I have no other support system.

Hi Ginger, today is my day 2 as well. It's almost over now, it's going on to 11pm here. I'm reading 'Allen Carr's Easy Way to Control Drinking' (which I believe is about how to stop drinking completely). I don't have any other support system either and plan to visit every day as well.

Starfish1;1398565 wrote: G?day everyone!

So glad to see all the ?new? newbies (Change, Dorothy, Ginger, P.J.),Please hang in there. It is tough to get past those first 3 or 4 days. I tried like a million times before I was able to do it (again). But it is well worth it. Stick with us and In no time at all you will have 30 days under your belt and be feeling on top of the world!

Thanks to you Starfish, and everyone else, for your support. It's great to be able to chat with people who totally understand. I'm so glad I discovered this forum.

[Alcoholic]

Newbies Nest

Kuya:

I have to respectfully disagree slightly to what you said about the brain receptors.

It is true if you are Substance free only for a short period of time, your brain will produce more receptors screaming for the missing chemical. However, if the missing chemical remains missing for a prolonged period of time, say one year, by then the screaming brain receptors have been "reabsorbed" and are gone and the brain is restored to normal balance.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that some or most people don't drink more when they relapse. AND I'm not promoting moderation even after one year of drinking. I treat substance abusers and have seen all types, AND the most common type is the type who should refrain for life. So don't beat me up please!!!!

[Catbuddy]

Newbies Nest

Sweet Sisterly Update

Hi Starfish and fellow nesters,

Quick update on reaching out to my sister. She called me tonight as I was getting ready to leave work (unusual). I paused when I saw her number; I have to brace myself for our conversations; she is usually drunk when she calls. We spoke briefly, as I was carpooling home and would not want to chat with another person present. She said, "You sound really good... " with puzzlement and a question in her voice. I said thank you, things are good, without going into any details. Wow. Is there a vibe we are sharing? She is 2,000 miles away.

I thought about how I would reach out to offer help. I'm planning to go home for Christmas. I hope to have nearly three months AF at that point. She will notice changes (less weight, for one). When she asks, I'll say I gave up AL. If she goes any further, I will bring up MWO. It will all be at her pace and in her time.

I hope tonight was the seed that bears Christmas fruit.

Cat

(wish you guys were still up.....I'm always whistling in the dark here by my lonesome at night.)

[RunningCourage]

Newbies Nest

Just getting up, Cat!

Sounds like there is a vibe there with you and your Sis. And really like your approach of taking it at her pace. Got my fingers and toes crossed for you both that the seed plants...

RC

[kuya]

Newbies Nest

Alcoholic;1398960 wrote: Kuya:

I have to respectfully disagree slightly to what you said about the brain receptors.

It is true if you are Substance free only for a short period of time, your brain will produce more receptors screaming for the missing chemical. However, if the missing chemical remains missing for a prolonged period of time, say one year, by then the screaming brain receptors have been "reabsorbed" and are gone and the brain is restored to normal balance.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that some or most people don't drink more when they relapse. AND I'm not promoting moderation even after one year of drinking. I treat substance abusers and have seen all types, AND the most common type is the type who should refrain for life. So don't beat me up please!!!!

It's wierd cos I thought it should be as you logically say, but apparently it is not.

According to research by Sinclair and others when researching the use of naltrexone to treat alcoholism, the receptors for alcohol (and morphine, heroin, methamphetamine) can only be blocked and never go away. They also say that more are made. These don't CAUSE relapse but account for the rapid return to previous drinking levels experienced by most people.

In your line of work when did you ever hear anyone say they took LESS drugs as they got older? We become tolerant and this applies to everyone regardless of how much or often they consume.

There are two parts to tolerance, the ability to detox which increases with use UNTIL the organs are damaged then it decreases. Then there is the pleasure part with endorphins which only goes one way, UP. This is why people drink themselves to death. They need more and more to satisfy the requirements of the endorphin receptors but can detox less and less as their organs are damaged .

Using naltrexone to block these receptors and then drinking can extinguish the body's endorphin release in response to drinking alcohol BUT the naltrexone must ALWAYS be taken as the increased receptor production will lead to an INCREASE in consumption when alcohol is drunk without naltrexone.

I don't like the implication of this research either as it flies in the face of what I would RATHER believe i.e. that the longer we are abstainant, the less tolerant we will be of alcohol and will drink less. But this is not the case. Often people think that the fact you get drunk quicker after abstainance reflects a decreased tolerance. This effect is only due to a decrease in the chemical pathways in the liver. These are the ONLY things that decrease during abstainance but they quickly recover and the alcoholic (as reported here by long term abstainers who slip) RAPIDLY returns to the old level and MORE.

You CAN moderate by willpower but sadly most who attempt to abstain report that their drinking overall was actually more.

The good side of all this IMO has been to clearly understand that my problem was biochemical NOT willpower. I have loads of willpower but it is useless to me in this arena, as useless as trying to suppress a cough or hold my breath till I die. It can't be done.

I could rigidly try to control my drinking by counting but I know it won't work for me as I need about 12 units of alcohol for a satisfactory buzz. I don't drink to be social, I drink for the buzz.

So for me I accept the things I cannot change and change the thing I can. This takes willpower and I hope I have enough to reach the peace with this problem that the long term abstainers describe.

[kuya]

Newbies Nest

allankay;1398754 wrote: Kuya,

100 units a week = 5 pints a day

damn, girl how did you fit your life around your drinking?

AK

Actually at two units per pint it was about 6 pints per day, more some days. Taken in the form of vodka, which is the poison of choice for a lot of women, it is not that hard to do Allan.

I never drank before 7pm and was usually done by 11 pm. In bed by midnight and up at 7.30 am ready for another day of work and an evening of insanity.

I have never missed a day of work due to alcohol and have had 3 hangovers in my life. I have vomited twice due to alcohol ( when young) and never passed out anywhere including on the sofa. I have never DUIed.

My tolerance is VERY high but after 23 years of this bullshit I was starting to feel like crap and knew abstainance was the ONLY way out for me.

And it is starting to feel great!

[allankay]

Newbies Nest

kuya;1399056 wrote: Actually at two units per pint it was about 6 pints per day, more some days. Taken in the form of vodka, which is the poison of choice for a lot of women, it is not that hard to do Allan.

I never drank before 7pm and was usually done by 11 pm. In bed by midnight and up at 7.30 am ready for another day of work and an evening of insanity.

I have never missed a day of work due to alcohol and have had 3 hangovers in my life. I have vomited twice due to alcohol ( when young) and never passed out anywhere including on the sofa. I have never DUIed.

My tolerance is VERY high but after 23 years of this bullshit I was starting to feel like crap and knew abstainance was the ONLY way out for me.

And it is starting to feel great!

Kuya, in a way, it is very impressive. May be you have an exceptionally strong immune system.

AK

[Patrick]

Newbies Nest

not being very articulate I find music says what I would like to say,so to all you lurkers wondering "will I?wont I quit?"mWo and all the contributers here will be your parachute. "JUMP" YOU WONT REGRET IT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKMgnCQDi9w&feature=BFa&list=FLMR7PIhs1ab9 NnpOx_UxqbQ[/video]](take a) Parachute - Something Happens - YouTube

[kuya]

Newbies Nest

allankay;1399079 wrote: Kuya, in a way, it is very impressive. May be you have an exceptionally strong immune system.

AK

I got a lot of coughs and colds though and they hung around for ages. In the last two months had sore throat that was not that bad.

I was talking with my oldest son about tolerance and he has the same huge capacity for alcohol. He can drink a whole bottle of vodka in a night and be fine. He rarely drinks nowadays but has never had a problem but I used to worry when he was younger because of my history with alcohol.

Genetics plays a big part in how much trouble alcohol causes you.

[Alcoholic]

Newbies Nest

Kuya:

Interesting discussion.

I have seen many deaths especially w opiates when a person stopped using (usually because of incarceration) and returned to use the same amount as before. Usually they were only incarcerated or stopped using for a short amount of time: days or weeks. I think what happened was that the receptors didn't see opiates, screamed for opiates, patient went through withdrawals, and the patient, after release, went out and used, not knowing perhaps their bodies couldn't tolerate the same amount of drugs any more, and died.

Opiate and nicotine dependence medication treatments have come a long way. Alcohol dependence meds have ways to go, otherwise I would have tried them myself years ago. Though some do find naltrexone, campral, etc, helpful, but not an overwhelmingly large number of patients from my experience.

To answer your question: most of the time when I see alcoholic patients relapse, they return to the same amount that they drank. Of course some drink more and some drink less, but most of the time, they go back to drinking about the same amount. That's just my experience.

There are very few who i call burn- out alcoholics who no longer get any highs no matter how much they drink and they eventually almost just self taper off because they no longee see any point. They are usually pretty old though. But again VERY small number. I felt i was getting to that point myself, felt all i was doing was preventing the withdrawals. I didn't get any highs or any reward from drinking at the end.

Receptors can be blocked but receptors are just made of proteins and they don't stay there forever, they eventually need to be recycled/regenerated/destroyed/disposed of so new ones can be made, not unlike neurotransmitters, blood cells, skin cells and even urine

I also think, like you, alcohol dependence has a bio-chemical/g?netic/psycho/social side to it. Willpower for me wasn't enough. I do use the supplements suggested and trying topamax and baclofen but what really help so far are kudzu and l-glutamine for me.

There may be alcoholics out there who can moderate their drinking now and don't come to sites like this because they don't feel they need the support. So the sample of people here on MWO isn't necessarily representative of the whole alcoholic population. Or there may be some that are some successful moderators here in the MWO moderation forums.

I have heard of successful moderators (by reports of their children and sometimes after they have died--not self report and not just because "they haven't failed yet"), usually in the context of doing childhood history and the person says their childhood was horrible because their parents drank heavily when they were growing up, but they drank a lot less later in life.

So the bottom line is it's all statistics: yes, it's extremely likely that we will relapse when we drink again. If you don't play w fire, you are less likely to be burned. so play safe and stay away from alcohol. and if you had quit before and relapsed and/or you are the type that can't stop at one, don't attempt at moderation at all because the chance of success at moderation is almost 0.

[kuya]

Newbies Nest

It is nice to get into discussion on this topic. I like to understand the problem and do badly if things don't make sense to me.

I think that I would have died of alcoholism before all the science we have available today. HPs are NOT my thing!

[kuya]

Newbies Nest

Also I note your observation on opiate users following incarceration. Do you think the problem vs drinking is they take one hit that kills them whereas the drinker builds up over a few days or weeks?