Newbies Nest

[Pavati]

Newbies Nest

MAE, Nest:

NoSugar;1669633 wrote: I tried your friend's approach at one point before I joined MWO with the result being that we started going out a lot and my definition of "special" hit an incredibly low bar .

Funny you should say this today - I just heard a quote from Robin Williams today that I wrote down. (I'm not sure these are his EXACT words). "We (alcoholics) violate our standards faster than we can lower them."

I actually believe in the harm reduction idea, and the idea that people can moderate successfully. There is a lot of new understanding that BEFORE the addiction sets in, people can change habits and become normal drinkers instead of becoming emotionally or physically dependent.

I was listening to a podcast on my hike today (I'll spare you all writing the name again as I'm sure you know), and there was a woman who told her story - and understood with her sober eyes what were and could have been warnings from decades ago. I know for me I had blackouts even in college - back then, without my sober eyes, they were terrible and embarrassing, but certainly not a reason to quit drinking. I just didn't have an off switch like some other people. I just had to learn about that and I'd be fine. Too bad I had to learn the hard way that it WASN'T normal. (One thing they always say on the show is the longer I am sober, the worse my disease gets - I can say that is true for me - I keep having to own up to myself some of the lowest points of my drinking career).

So for those of you deciding whether or not you can or should moderate, one idea I have would be trying to see your relationship with alcohol through sober eyes. We talk about treating ourselves as we would treat our children - if one of your children were drinking the way you drink/drank would you think moderation was something he or she should try? If you feel that the answer is yes, and if you feel that you would have the ability to come back if things were to go wrong (and at that point, with alcohol making the decisions, so be careful with that one), then go for it.

Ok, I'm ready for bed now. I am finishing up day 189 and feeling GREAT about being sober. I don't always, but today (and more and more often) I do.

xo
Pav

[frances]

Newbies Nest

Pepper you sound great - sounds like a really wonderful weekend. So glad to see you doing so well

[Petrelhead]

Newbies Nest

MAE everyone.

Thank you to everyone for the congrats on the 10km and to the detailed responses to my moderation thoughts. There is so much to consider.

DD, sorry to hear of your health issues. Wishing you a quick recovery.

Ava, my bestie here on MWO, thanks for all of your support. You are right about the depression. For me it's the single biggest issue. Alcohol can have many detrimental effects, but for me, that's the big one. I hate the feeling of anxiety, depression and shame that AL has on me. And when I don't drink at all, those feelings diminish so much they're almost negligible.

Sarah, at least stay on here and keep reading. I know things definitely get a lot better after the first week of being AF.

Lav, thanks for your thoughts. You are right. The " freedom" is NOT drinking. I am being seduced by the thought that I'm missing out on something.

Pav, I will consider that thought of " attitude of gratitude" more.

Wag, I like the term "non-negotiable". It has a no room for error feel about it. Thanks.

BL, thank you for that detailed response. I know it is something you feel very strongly about. And they are feelings and views of someone who has been there and done it. I respect that. And I know you're right. It's a dangerous thing that I've considered, and for what? All the good things I've experienced over the last few months have been far superior to any good feeling from alcohol, and the risk that it might become a daily problem again.

J-vo, Rahul, Francis, NS, guitar, lucky flower and anyone I may have missed, thank you for your input.

I've thought a lot about moderation in the last few days. The risks, the benefits. It's a risky consideration. And I'd be fooling myself if I thought otherwise. The good parts about not drinking outweigh the drinking so much.

Again, thank you to everyone who replied. All of your opinions are very much appreciated and respected.

[Sarah42]

Newbies Nest

Pavati;1669506 wrote: MAE, All:

Since you asked, Petrel... I found that taking the choice of alcohol off the table completely was the most freeing act I've ever taken. If I was moderating, or trying to moderate as the case may be, I was constantly thinking about alcohol - only on the weekends and special occasions. Well, is this a special occasion? I drank Tuesday, so I guess this is a blown week. I just need a little drink to get to sleep. I'm celebrating. I'm mourning. Just one. F*$K! Too many. This morning, I PROMISE, no drinking (at least until I go camping in June...) You get my point. Now I do long for it from time to time, but ultimately, because I don't have to bargain with myself each and every time, those feelings are short lived. It sounds simplistic, and when one is in the early stages of quitting it is annoying and makes no sense, but the attitude of gratitude is important. You sound like a optimistic person and like it wouldn't be too hard for you.

Cherokeer! Awesome. I'm so happy for you, and sorry your cousins wouldn't leave you alone. Your getting to experience a new kind of high - without alcohol. It took a while for my brain to adjust to that - I read that it can take a year or more for your brain receptors to heal, but it will come.

DD - I think it is very normal to be tired and to be thinking so much of your surgery. Meditation can help with that - shaking off the worries about the future to be in the present. I'll be thinking of you on June 11.

Sarah - all I have to add is that it really IS easier to figure out the why of drinking - to figure out who we truly are - when we are sober. If thinking about forever is too difficult, make a commitment for 30 days, or even a week, and see where you are and how you feel.

And finally, I read on another thread that our NoSugar had 500 days sober!! Whoot and way to go! Thanks for showing us how it is done, and for supporting us all along the way.

Happy Sober Sunday, everyone.

Pav

Very helpful post Pav...thank you!

[Sarah42]

Newbies Nest

wagmore;1669509 wrote: Sarah - I haven't been around long enough to know what you've been going through, so I won't try to comment on that. You said that you're here to get help, and others have commented that they have tried to help. Do you have any insights you can share regarding what type of help we can offer that would benefit you the most? Different people need and are looking for different things. Can you ask for what you need? Maybe you already have and I just didn't read back far enough - if that is the case I apologize for being in the dark.

Also, if you feel like you need to understand WHY you drink before you'll be able to stop, I respect that position. For me, it has been working quite the opposite. Since I stopped drinking, I have been able to more clearly stop, examine, and reflect whenever I felt triggered to drink. When I was drinking, there was little time between the thought crossing my mind and the AL going down my throat. By the time it occurred to me to think about WHY, I was already thinking less clearly.

I still haven't figured it all out (I'm only on Day 38), but I'm gradually gaining insights and seeing some patterns to my triggers. This is enabling me to develop different strategies for release, relief, coping, distracting, etc.

It sounds like you've been saying that you haven't figured out "you" while you've been continuing to drink. Maybe try stopping for a few days and see if you can figure out a few pieces of you during that sober time. You have to walk your own path, and what works for one person won't necessarily work for another. Just wanted to offer a different perspective.

Hi wag- thanks. You have some very good questions for me. I wish I could answer some of them. I've significantly cut back on intake, but totally abstinent makes me scared. The truth is I enjoy a view drinks at night. After a busy day, it calms me. It doesn't inhibit me from functioning (i.e, I haven't been drunk in probably 2+ years), but I drink every night (regardless of how much) and I feel this is very unhealthy- which lead me here. So, your question about can I properly ask for what type of help I need? I honestly can't. I 'think' I have quite a bit of anxiety due to my personality, etc., so I bought some St. John's Wort and that does seem to help. I think I have been drinking AT anxiety for years. So- I've been medicating myself in a way I guess...plus I like the taste of beer and wine (never been a fan of hard liquor)..

I created my plan, went AF for 1 day. It felt good that I accomplished a 'task', but eh that was it. I read all the 'you are an alcoholic or are you' type sites, and I drink 'more' than the recommended 'units' they say, but again I haven't gotten drunk nor does my drinking really bother my immediate family, as I still cook, clean, function, engage in conversation, remember the night before and take care of the dogs and other daily things with ease. It's not like I sit around thinking "holy shit I need a drink". I suppose the best analogy is sortof like when you are on a diet and really sortof want a pizza slice, but you opt for a salad instead...and I'm ok with that, but my preference that night would have been the pizza. So IDK..still trying to figure this out myself.

I still think that I just enjoy it, and I never really thought of myself with a 'problem', but with my health - I want to stop or maybe moderate (hard to say now)...which is why I'm trying to figure out why I'm so fearful of just stopping entirely. It makes no sense? I think the bottom line is...I just haven't decided I want to yet. I still want pizza occasionally if that makes sense, but I also like a good salad.

That all being said...I am here b/c I want to better my health, and AL is NOT good for health. (neither is pizza).

I have waffled way too long here for now, but as you can see....I haven't committed to stopping the 'pizza' yet.

[Sarah42]

Newbies Nest

Byrdlady;1669515 wrote: Wow, busy nest!
Chero, I tell you, it's wins like yours that make it all worth this effort. It may SEEM like a small thing, but it isn't. Drinking has been such a way of life for all us that breaking that cycle and just taking the easy route is so tempting. I am SO proud of you! As I have said many times here, I am usually the only nondrinker in my social circles, and that's fine. There are plenty of them that wish they were me (or at least, not drinking). They wake up feeling like hell every day. I did that too, I know what a prison it is.

DD, we are holding you close this week. All of our thoughts are with you.

Sarah....there are so many stages along this journey. Every single one of us were afraid to be without our prop. The sooner you take those training wheels off the better the ride will be. I can't wait to see that, either....in your short time here, you offer great support to others, by what you have seen so far. It will be a great day when you get to your milestones, too. I can't wait to moon you!

Petrel, Petrel, Petrel......
Believe it or not, you have brought up a subject that I am very passionate about; Moderating!
Let us look at the facts, shall we?
All of us here are alcoholics. I know, we all don't want to hear/admit/ say it out loud, but alas. Every single one of us reading on this site have a problem serious enough to google 'Alcohol Problems' , find this site, join and participate in it. You may have seen in the Tool Box, the stages of Alcoholism, so most of us can classify ourselves as in some stage of it. So if we accept the fact that we are alcoholics (to some degree) we must take it to the next step. Can moderating be done? The answer is, it depends on WHO YOU ASK. If you read over on the mods boards, you will see folks posting happily that they are successfully moderating and loving it. EXCEPT when you follow them closely. Pick any person and read ALL of their posts and also check out how long they've been 'successfully' moderating. According to the guidelines, it's 14 "UNITS" per week for a man, and 7 units for a woman per week. Anything other than that is NOT moderating, it is still alcoholic drinking. Also, you must be aware of 'moderating speak'. This is where everything looks like sunshine and roses UNTIL you learn how to read MS. It goes something like this..... I was able to stick to my moderating goals ALL week, except last night when I had 3 beers, then I came home and had 2 shots, and just a half glass of wine. I felt like hell this morning, but I won't drink today for sure. (but then they go on to drink that day, just not as much) I am doing great this week, I only drank 2 nights this week and will drink tonight, then I have a wedding this weekend and a party on Sunday. I promised myself I wasn't going to drink this week, but I did, I'm not going to beat myself up about it. I went over my limits, but will watch it the rest of the week. I am following my moderating goals of not drinking thru the week and just drinking on weekends, except last night when hubs and I split a bottle of wine. I will be AF tonight. THIS is NOT moderating by the guidelines, this is an alcohol free- for- all. They are all depressed and are blaming everyone and every thing for it. IT'S THE ALCOHOL!!! They talk about us like we are nuts over here, about how miserable we are that we can't drink, but if you ask me, we are the HAPPY ones! If they equate GETTING to drink like that as happiness, count me out. The mind games are horrendous. Just drinking on special occasions sounds nice and all, or just drinking on weekends, but like Pav said, it just doesn't work out that way for us alkies. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. There is some real science behind addiction, too, so don't just take my word for it. Why should you believe me? Well, as in life, this is something you will have to find out for yourself....but if 100 people walk off a cliff and 99 of them die, then that's pretty compelling to me. I tried it myself for 10 days shy of a year....I never drank harder. I always started out ok, but then when I actually got some AL I drank out of panic or something, as if I were making up for lost time. After all, I was FEEDING my addiction. So miserable a failure I was, that I have tracked this in my 4 and a half years here....I am going to make a statement that is hard to believe....I have never seen one case of successful, long term moderation. EVER. As in NEVER. I'll get heat for this, they'll come at me with guns a-blazing...."I moderated great for 3 months until I decided to go AF you hag!!!" Well that's not really LONG TERM is it? If you think you feel deprived NOW, just wait til you start trying to moderate! Whatever you get is NEVER enough!! You are always deprived! Plus, I find that moderators are not honest about what they drink, either. How do I know this?? I was one of them!! I WANTED it to work BAD!! I tried to fit in and make it work, I have seen people fight this for years and years, and it is sad to watch. AL is going to win. So now, when someone tells me that they have decided to moderate, it's like watching someone walk into a propeller. I know what they are about to encounter. It's awful. But it's something that each of us have to try out for ourselves. I wish I had a nickel for every person here who have written that they were thinking about moderating. If we really face the truth, isn't that what we tried to do BEFORE we got here? Didn't you spend YEARS trying to control this? What has changed? More knowledge? More self awareness? The truth is, NOTHING has changed. You are addicted to AL and nothing is going to change that. Even on this site, moderation is talked about using those high powered drugs with serious side effects. You should read some of the things those folks are enduring so they can drink...it is sad to think about the sheer POWER AL has over us....that we would endure all these things, just to drink. Your 30 some days were amazing, but it takes a considerably longer time to get the distance needed to see clearly. AL shows no mercy on us. The only way to break free is to stop consuming it. It is NOT worth it...it is NOT worth all the pain it causes. Just look at the mind games it's playing already. Sorry to write a book on this, but I would challenge you to really do your homework and really follow those people you were reading about. They drop out of site for days/weeks/months at a time.... I would dare to say that all of us with longterm sobriety have tried to moderate. If it worked, we wouldn't be here.

I think there are 2 sure signs you are an Alkie....one is when you try to quit and realize you can't....the other is when you decide to moderate. Don't fall for it. It's a trick!

Have a great AF day, everyone! Byrdie
as usual...a very good post. Thanks Byrdie!!

[Sarah42]

Newbies Nest

Dila;1669594 wrote: Sarah - don't stop coming here...I haven't even though I don't post everyday. I need to get my head on straight as well and figure out alot of things. I admire that you write your feelings down no matter what they are.

Sending you love and hugs!

thank you! I think of you daily! I do feel like writing down my feelings help...even if I do sound like a nut job, drama queen or whatever. It helps release tension. I hate some don't want to hear it, and they can skip over my post if they want to, but it seems to help me emotionally. We CAN do this Dila..we just gotta find our way.:h

[Juja]

Newbies Nest

Middle of the night panic attack

I've worked myself into a state, and am coming here to talk it out. I woke up at 2:00 a.m. feeling perfectly happy, proceeded to think every negative thing I could, and now I'm shaking.

Let's see:

-I'm not perfect enough to be on MWO. I'm not trying hard enough. I have nothing to give.

-I'm just like my mother--too insecure to stand up to my husband because I may not be able to deal with the fallout.

-I think my thyroid has stopped working. I'm hypothyroid, as it is, but this is 1,000 times worse than usual. I have no energy at all, my legs feel like they weigh a ton, my body aches, and my brain is one big cotton ball. I wasn't depressed this weekend, and made as much an effort to do positive things as I could, so I don't know what it is. I hope to see my dr tomorrow. Probably stress. And, no, I'm not drunk, and haven't been.

So many of you are doing so well, and I am happy for you. I don't have the energy to read back through all posts, but I do know Cherokeer and Wag have had a great weekend. Good going.

Thanks for listening.

[roxane]

Newbies Nest

juja, your emotions are all over the place and its not funny. i should imagine the thyroid problem will be connected as well.

no one here is perfect. in fact, i dont believe there is a person in the world who is. but thats not the point really is it?

you are trying, or you wouldnt be thinking this way. youd be on your merry way thinking you were fine.

its not refferred to as a rollercoaster for nothing, hang in there :l

[roxane]

Newbies Nest

may i humbly suggest that one of the reasons this site may be crashing all the time is that these threads have to load every time and this one in particular is huge.

this site is old and not been upgraded so is clunky. having to upload 5000 or more posts takes up its ram or wotnot. its like lifting encyclopedia britannica onto the table to read the last few pages.

maybe a new thread and leave this one alone? see if it helps?

[available]

Newbies Nest

Juj as Rox says no one is perfect and you are doing af days so be proud of that. Giving up al is not easy and you have to give it everything you have some days to stay sober and emotionally sometimes that is hard as well as dealing with everyday life.

Go to your doctors to reassure yourself and get your thyroid checked. See if he can recommend anything to help you alleviate the panic attacks/anxiety. I suffered from terrible anxiety when i was drinking but would never blame al and now i am basically anxiety free. The first few weeks were not good though and i did take some valium to settle myself down as i was thinking the worst also.

Do you have any relaxation cd's to listen too? I have an app on my iphone called "relax lite" and its free and is for breathing. I found this helpful to settle me down and my daughter who is suffering with anxiety also listens to this religiously.

Post on here if you need reassurance, you will never be ignored Juj.

[Sarah42]

Newbies Nest

juja- sorry to hear you feel bad. I do think u need a DR due to your thyroid issue, but I assume u are on meds for that?

Rx- nah...coming from an IT person it seems they run their updates or cron jobs during certain times (usually 1-3 am my time) which slows the site down. It shouldn't matter if 200K people are on here at once if they have a dedicated server. who knows what they have....but I know they need one. Just my 2 cents anyway.

Just started Carr's book tonight and while only on chapter 2...I can tell I'm gonna love it.

Love,

Sarah

[Sarah42]

Newbies Nest

oh and btw- congrats NS, Pet, Pav, Rahul, ..I meant to say that earlier but wanted to get into this book. so sorry.

Love you guys/gals!


Sarah

[Lavande]

Newbies Nest

Good morning Nesters,

It's Monday morning & raining here, blah looking outside. My plan is to turn up the lights & some good music & just pretend it's nice

Juja, the thyroid symptoms, panic attacks & sleeplessness were all early menopause symptoms for me. My thyroid levels were actually in the low normal range so no one wanted to give me a supplement. I really do believe that helped ramp up my lifelong anxiety problems. I eventually became depressed & started self-medicating with wine Getting your health care professionals to understand this is not easy. I finally started taking some St Johns Wort & found some relief. After a while I found a better source called Amoryn & that really did the trick for me. My doc had put me on Lexapro & all it did was make me feel numb. Take a look at the Amoryn website AMORYN Mood Booster | Natural Supplement to Improve Mood and Promote Emotional Health | St. John's Wort 3% Hyperforin
Once I had the anxiety & depression under control I was able to give up my wine habit pretty easily

Sarah, fear of the unknown is a pretty big deal. It kept me from making the right decision for myself for way too long as well. Truthfully, there is absolutely nothing to fear. I am living just fine without my crutches (wine & smokes) & feel 100% better - you can too!

Wishing everyone a great AF Monday!

Lav

[Juja]

Newbies Nest

I wasn't sure my post got through, as the site crashed. I'm glad I was heard.

Rox, I do have AF days, and far more than I once did, and with less AL involved, but I can't seem to get a string of them together. One reason I'd like to stay here, is to keep reading and learning, and become AF.

Av, I've had anxiety since I was a child, and believe me, I wasn't drinking when I was 5, which is my first recollection of the feeling.:upset: Most of the times my meds keep it under control. I think what set it off last night was a visit from my husband yesterday, and his refusal to hear me. One negative thought led to another...and voila, panic city.

And, AV, this was perfect: "Juj as Rox says no one is perfect and you are doing af days so be proud of that. Giving up al is not easy and you have to give it everything you have some days to stay sober and emotionally sometimes that is hard as well as dealing with everyday life." Thanks for not lecturing me.

I'll my call my doctor as soon as his office opens. Couples' therapy Wednesday night, personal counseling Thursday. Intense week ahead.