Newbies Nest

[Byrdlady]

Good Morning, Nesters!
I hope everyone is gearing up for a happy day!
QW, GREAT job on Day 2!! That is a tough day, but you know you can do it because you did day 1! Day 3 is easier! When you get to 7 days, the whole nest will drop our pants and MOON you in celebration!!! I can't wait to lead that salute! Keep up the fight, it is worth it.

I think it's safe to say we are ALL fighters here. When we hit our low points and finally got on our computers and entered a search (relating to alcohol abuse or quitting drinking or whatever it was that led us to MWO) we knew that something had to change. What I was doing was NOT working anymore. At ALL. In fact, I was being 'OUTTED' and I didn't like it one bit. What I have learned is that we all feel that way. We are afraid of what an AF future looks like, I know I was. I was afraid of what my coworkers would think, how would I ever go to another party? How would I function thru the rest of my life without AL? Guess what the answer is: BETTER THAN EVER! If you think AL is holding your life together get ready for a big awakening! That's AL telling you that you can't do it. AL is THE MOST ominous opponent I have ever seen. It fills you with FEAR that you cannot live without it. Newsflash....YOU CAN! If AL is the glue holding anything together in your life then you need to get yourself back to shop and re-evaluate. AL is the most destructive force I have ever seen....why? Because it is widely accepted. It's legal. Romanticized, advertised...Cheap and easy to get. Encouraged by friends and family....oh come on, JUST ONE won't hurt you! I've heard that 1000 times. AL IS EVERYWHERE!

I take a little different stance towards AL....I had to look it in the eye and say, I GIVE UP! YOU WIN! AL ALWAYS WINS! It is so much bigger than I am....it is beyond willpower or habit breaking or LOVE of family. It is something I FEAR now, because it is out to kill me. I don't even go down the wine aisle in the grocery store if I can possibly avoid it! I treat it just like a rattlesnake....I keep my distance. I respect it. I made a vow to never buy or consume it again, and I haven't. I've never regretted one single day since I got sober. (1,679 days ago)

At the end of my drinking, my life became quite pathetic (even by my low standards!). I just KNEW I could moderate....I went back into the ring to try, got the shit knocked out of me, staggered back to my corner to re-group. Felt a little better, got BACK into the ring, got bloodied up and knocked to my knees again and crawled off into my corner. Got my legs back, stumbled back into the ring, got my ticket punched and fell back into my corner....see where I'm going with this? As long as we step back into that ring we are going to get our stuffing handed back to us, there isn't going to be a ROCKY ending in this one. AL is going to win.....EVERY TIME.

I've seen a lot of people come and go in this nest and on our site. Some want help, some really don't....they are stuck in place by FEAR. They don't want to face the inevitable conclusion that quitting AL is the only way out of this rabbit hole. You can take it from someone who tried every dirty trick in the book to make it work...every 'work-around' I could think of. Guess what worked? Yep, that option I just never would try! There are two types of folks here at MWO....those who struggle with AL and those who don't. We are choosing sides now....which team would you rather be on?

Hope everyone has an easy day! Byrdie

[KENSHO]

Matt, that AA "quick read" you posted resonated with me. I do crave it after some - that's for sure. I guess I've been looking for some clarification to "is my problem bad enough that I have to stop completely". And that started me comparing to others - trying to justify that the quantity and outward consequences "were not that bad". I know this is something lots of us do. I want like the dickens to be able to have "just a little". Maybe others have suggestions on how they came to terms with "YES, my problem is bad enough to stop completely". Is it that if you have cravings you are one of those people with the "allergy" reaction? I have so many questions - would anyone be willing to have some private message discussions with me? I don't want to flood the nest.

I hope everyone has a good day - hope you are getting good doses of puppy breath STARFISH!!

[NoSugar]

Just my 2 cents, Kensho, but I think you are helping many people by posting here and not getting defensive or lashing out when you get responses. The back and forth is what we need. The problem with PMs is that only the people involved in the conversation benefit. Don't worry about overwhelming the nest - everyone can choose what they want to read.

[KENSHO]

Thanks NS. I just think some of you must be very tired of these topics (and of my back and forth). OK, so here are my questions. We have talked about the fact that anyone can have the willpower to muscle through a quit - but I think to make it last, having a clear understanding and "surrender" (to use Gman's term) is needed. I would appreciate anyone's thoughts...

1. Is there a difference between alcohol abuse and alcohol addiction? Are there levels? (I've heard of the stages) How does one know where they fall? Is it black and white? I'm sure there are some good reads out there on this...

2. I got into very bad habits using AL to relieve stress - i.e. I tagged alcohol as a "cure" in my brain for various ailments. I looked forward to 2-4 drinks per night, drank anything that I could get or buy or find (wine, or any hard stuff or shit cooking vermouth - what?!). I began to drink to relieve stress or boredom at 2:30 in the afternoon one day week or so. I hid bottles, hid drinking and couldn't wait to get that first sip - often in the car on the way home. I definitely abused it and obsessed about it - and I HATED that it was something I would fight with myself about, saying that I wouldn't drink that night, but I couldn't break that pattern. Does this qualify me as someone who can't ever drink again? It's so extreme (AND I would have to admit something big about myself). I was desperate and unhappy when I first logged on here, stating "I want to control this, but I don't know how". I never-ever want to go back to that daily use, and I haven't. I have had multiple days of none - but I am not doing what I said I thought I could, which was 1 drink every 30 days. I just hate that I feel like my freedom has been taken away - that I CAN'T do something. I'm the type that if you say I can't, I will find a way to do it better than you ever imagined. I'm not one for rules. And I don't like being told what to do. (I DO sense a similar feistiness among people here!). But I'm not interested in throwing my life down the toilet to prove that I can drink. I am just dumbfounded that I can't have ANY. Really? I guess I'm sort of in shock. Denial? Pleading? Bargaining?

3. I just want to understand where I truly fit. Is the toolbox the best place to read? Also, there are some conflicting strategies in AL treatment research, one of them being moderation management. What of this?

There it is. I know many of you have done quite a bit of research, and I should probably do the same. I truly appreciate the honesty and advice - as much as I may not want to hear it.

[LilBit]

'Agree with NS! There are countless people lurking who need exactly the same discussion, plus it's therapeutic for us to speak openly about it.

I am one of those people who came to terms with "yes, it is bad enough that I must quit completely" even though there weren't any substantial external effects. I didn't lose my job or get a DUI, or any of those ubiquitous trademarks of the classic wino. In fact, my career was never better and I continued a serious hobby of competitive figure skating in my spare time. Most people probably had no idea that I had a problem, thanks to my telecommuting job, well-honed social skills and some serious hoop-jumping. But, I just got sick and tired of the whole thing. Trying to mod, overdoing it, making resolutions, failing, yada, yada... It was exhausting.

Here's part of the mindset that worked for me. I said to myself, "I'm tired of this crap. I'm going to try quitting for a while to see if it's truly worth it." And guess what? It was. It was so above and beyond, far and away, you-can't-imagine worth it that it was the best decision I ever made. What on earth does anyone have to lose by giving up the AL for a while? It's both a serious and rhetorical question.

More food for thought, and this may be tough to swallow but it needs to be said. I have to agree with Pav's previous posts (I think it was Pav) that talked about hindsight, and how my drinking gets worse the further away from it I get. You see, we have to work so hard to convince ourselves that our habit is OK and we're OK, that it takes a while for the beer goggles to fall off and for us to admit and see how awful and noticeable the beast really is. I cringe when I think about showing up to the rink for a lesson with my coach, when I was still hungover and probably reeking. I am ashamed of drinking my way through family gatherings and believing that no one noticed. Last weekend, I watched an obnoxious drunk husband "cheering on" the skaters at our local competition, even shouting the wrong person's name at one of them and thought how easily that could have been me. So, part of this whole picture is being open to the idea that you may be worse off than you're capable of realizing just now. It's uncomfortable as heck. But, it's true.

[LilBit]

Kensho, we X-posted but, given the information you outlined about your habit then and now, you would certainly benefit from ditching AL completely. It doesn't matter that you're having less now than you did before. It's a progressive disease, even if it appears to be "under control." That's just an illusion.

Ask yourself -- what are you really giving up? Does AL make you feel fabulous all the time? Or is it just for brief moments that are more than offset by all the internal arguments, time, expense, health effects, etc.? If it makes you feel fabulous all the time, then why are you here?

Edited: I want you to know that I say all this with love, and my intent is not to be harsh or critical but to bring up some hard truths that may help you. Please know that I know how you feel, and I am not judging you.

[LavenderBlue]

Kensho, I think part of what I did was to actually USE that part of me that doesn't like rules. See, I wanted to try quitting smoking and drinking, but I knew most of my friends would still do one or both. But if drinking and smoking is the norm among my friends, wouldn't quitting be much more breaking out of the norm than just going along and drinking because everyone else does? Isn't it much more rebel spirit to be able to say, "Hey, I decided to change my habits instead of doing the same old easy thing!"?

I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well, but the part of you that doesn't want to be told what to do, aren't you letting your family and friends (and the Al addiction itself) tell you what to do by drinking with them when you'd rather not? "Sneaking" something almost always means there's an issue, especially as an adult, yeah?

1. I think it's possible there's a difference between alcohol abuse and alcoholism, but I decided to stop arguing with myself over where I fit. I can't control my intake the way I'd like, and I do better without - those are enough reasons to just stop hitting my head into the same wall over and over. A textbook definition isn't why I need to be sober, the proof of my life is the important bit. I have also read countless times that a person is really bad at judging for themselves where their addiction lies on the scale, especially while we are drinking we really can't trust ourselves because we're actively addicted, you know?

And I kept coming back to the basic idea that if it is really really hard for me to stop, if I hate the idea of stopping, if I'd rather do almost anything other than stop...NEWSFLASH I have a serious problem. The very face that quitting drinking entirely WAS such a thing for me proved I had a problem.

2. Well, you tried moderating before you came here, you tried moderating after you came here, every time you've tried moderating you've gone back to drinking more than you want, yes? It seems like again, maybe it's time to stop trying to find loopholes in definitions and look at the part where you can't handle it to the degree that you want. This is kind of where I was coming from with trying to see things differently. You can't drink the way you want to, so that isn't an option. The choice is between continuing to drink in a way you are not happy with, or just quitting. It is really really hard to drop that dream of normal drinking, or the memories of back when you perhaps could...but they don't reflect reality anymore.

3. From everything I've read, moderation management is something suggested to folks who are just starting to drink to an unhealthy degree, catching them before they reach the point where they can't handle it themselves. Or, there's the folks on the site who use medication to help them along. But I've also seen folks who have been at modding for years, and still haven't hit a balance. I've been off drinking for a little over a year, and I'm feeling better than ever and rarely crave - quitting seems a much more guaranteed route, if that makes sense? If I'm not drinking, I can't have more than I want. Plus, the longer I go without, the less I feel that need, my brain and heart and body have adapted to managing life and social activities different ways.

Wow, I wrote a lot and I'm still trying to wake up, lol. I have a bit of a cold so I'm a little brain-derpy. All thing considered, it feels like it might help you to spend time thinking about why you WANT to get out of the cycle. This isn't about the Big Bad Nest trying to tell you what to do...you have a problem, folks have told you how they got past the problem, and now you get to choose what to do with that information. Sneaking drinks and all that is only hurting *you*; maybe that's the other piece that finally got into my brain. That what I wanted was hurting me, so choosing to stop doing it was kinder to myself than "allowing" myself to keep going.

[Pie]

Hey Kensho, It helps me a great deal to consider your questions, and the answers you receive. Thanks very much for taking the time to post them.

[Starfish1]

Please note: I had drafted this lengthy post after NS’s last post and BEFORE Kensho’s last post. I couldn’t send it right away, so after I drafted it and then read Kensho’s last post and the wonderful replies, I almost didn’t post this info about myself.
But- I was really astounded at the similarities between my experience with my relationship with AL and with what you all have written, so, for what it’s worth, I am going to post it.
Sorry if it doesn’t answer your questions, directly, Kensho, but I think what it DOES show is how similar our thoughts and actions are, under the influence of this terrible beast.
Here is the original part of the post…

Thanks, Kensho!
Yep, enjoying that puppy breath and everything else to do with puppies. :turd2:
Yay! Got to use that emoticon again!!!
I've been dealing with the bank all morning, guys. Someone apparently made a copy of my bank debit card and used it overseas. What a pain! Just what I need! Glad I'm sober and able to deal with this mess. Ugh!

I am getting a lot from all the conversations and feedback here. This is really helping me.
In my other quits, using this site, I have not posted a lot about my personal feelings because I guess I felt like Kensho and didn’t really want to clog up the site, but, this time, I am going to say my piece because I think just writing it out will help me. If others don’t want to read it or get nothing from it, they can skip it, that’s ok. If someone gets some benefit from reading it, that’s even better. I just want to express the way I see that MY disease has manifested itself in me.

I have always been in a weird mindset when it came to my relationship with AL. I have really never had a problem admitting (to myself) that I am an alcoholic. I have known for years. I guess the reason I could see it and accept it is that I was brought up in an alcoholic home and I am one of those that believes there is a genetic pre-disposition, so voila...here I am :checkin: Alcoholic here.

I have never really compared my drinking or my situation to others (that much) either. I have never said "I'm NOT that bad"...I guess because I always felt like "I AM that bad"....
I have never had a problem struggling with the concept of NEVER having another drink. That’s exactly what I WANT. I WANT to NEVER have another drink. I promised myself every morning (for years) that I would never drink again, but by that afternoon, my resolve went out the door. THAT has always been my stumbling block. Following through on the vows to myself (and/or my family). Maybe I just wasn’t giving the word FOREVER enough thought? I don’t know, but the vow never stuck.
My disease progressed so slowly that I never really noticed the progression. I began drinking DAILY when I was in my twenties. I began drinking MORE per day (and stronger spirits) when I was in my thirties and I began drinking EARLIER in the day when I was in my forties. I am 54 years old now and I would have to say that the past 12-15 years have been fraught with Alcohol-induced problems in my life, but, nonetheless, I am an intelligent, well-educated (Master’s Degree), person. I have a job and a home. I am and have been well-respected in my career and in my community (for the most part). I have been married for 30 years and have raised 4 beautiful daughters. Until recently, most people, outside my immediate family (husband and dtrs (and dogs)) didn't have a clue that I have a problem. I drank alone or I hid my drinking. I isolated myself and went to bed early. Over the past couple years, unfortunately, as I got sloppier, I am afraid people outside my family have noticed. Things have finally come to a point.
One time, NS, told me that if I didn't make the choice to quit drinking, myself, someone or something would make that choice for me. She was right.
I am making the choice myself now (before someone else makes it for me) and I am so grateful for the help and support of this community.
I think there are so many lovely, successful, sober people on this site that have made the decision to quit drinking and have done it due to different reasons and through different motivations and methods. I think it doesn’t matter if you drink all day, every day, or if you only drink at night. It doesn’t matter if you only drink on the weekends or if you only drink beer, wine or hard liquor. It doesn’t mean a thing to compare yourself to others.
Like has been said in earlier posts, the ONLY thing that matters it the way YOUR drinking affects YOU (and inadvertently, your relationships with others).
I am, without a shadow of a doubt, a much better and happier human being when I am not under the influence of alcohol.
End of original post…
I ran out of time and will go ahead and end it there, but some of the words I used and the themes running through others’ posts are eerily similar.
Kensho, you and I were similar in our drinking habits. I KNOW I MUST avoid alcohol at all costs, FOREVER. Knowing that one simple fact is easy for me. Following through is the difficult part. The good news is, we have all these great friends to help us.

Let’s let them!:hug:

[Samstone]

Kensho

I do not have real involved answers because it is my belief that deep down everyone know in themselves what the answers are regarding alcohol and the ability to keep it in check. Usually if there is a concern, there's a reason, yes? You have the answer to how much is too much or is it not that much. Hangovers, guilt, etc. All these things are things that only you know the degree. I am certainly not here to judge whatever course of action you take because only you know what's best for you.

No one here can answer the big question that seems to be troubling you... forever??? There's really only today, tomorrow ain't got here yet.

be well
best to you
Sam

[Quit wining]

Hi Fellow Nesters!

I've been reading recent posts, there's a lot of thought provoking comments to consider.

I think we all need to find what works for us individually and follow through on the commitments we've made by being here.

32 years ago I quit a 10 year, pack and a half a day cigarette habit cold turkey. It was tough at the outset and there were times it would have been so easy to give in. But I did it, with help from my wife and young children. Today I still consider myself a smoker, even though I haven't touched one since I quit.

At the time, I recall comparing my need to quit smoking to playing golf. Golf is a game of inches and the 6 most important inches are between my ears.

We all know this isn't easy. I have a tremendous respect for those that have successfully quit AL and thankful that so many have stuck around here to support and encourage the rest of us.

I'm just about done day 3 AF. It was a little easier today and I'm looking forward to getting mooned after day 7!

Hope everyone has a safe night in the nest!

[Guitarista]

Thanks Kensho and everyone for your fab posts and discussion.

For me, the question is simple. Does drinking any amount of booze mess with my overall happiness. The answer is a resounding yes. Why? Because my better judgment and inhibitions fly out the window after a couple, and history shows I don't stop there despite a '2 drink rule' lol.

Result: A depressed Gman laying low through another wasted day.

Opposite didn't drink yesterday scenario: A chirpy Gman, full of life, possibility and present for today, because tomorrow never comes.

If I entertain booze in my life, I know that I will be playing with fire, and I also know that my life will very likely be shortened 10-15 years. In this shortened life span, I would just be existing, not living.

I am aware of my simple choice here. It's up to me.

Gr8 stuff QDubbya on day 3!

[Starfish1]

Way to go QW!!!

[KENSHO]

Not sure where to start, but thank you for such thoughtful posts. These questions have been rattling around in my mind for some time - I really needed to unload them and discuss them. Thank you all so much for allowing that. There are so many smart, sound people here.

I think the first thing I need to remember is that, having had AL fairly recently - and still craving it - I am not in a place to judge anything. Thank you for that reminder LILBIT. And I did not think you were harsh - I asked the hard questions and I appreciate your honest answer. I think a start will be to just get some AF time, and therefore perspective. It's amazing how different I sound now, than I did after 60 days AF. Amazing.

LAVBLUE, lots of hard truths in your post - thank you. Thank you PIE, GUITAR, SAM (TODAY! Not tomorrow!).

Thank you very much for your thoughts and story STARFISH. I could quote most of what I read tonight, but I will sleep with this much in mind:

Like has been said in earlier posts, the ONLY thing that matters it the way YOUR drinking affects YOU (and inadvertently, your relationships with others). I am, without a shadow of a doubt, a much better and happier human being when I am not under the influence of alcohol.

[Pavati]

Hi, All:

I see there is a great ongoing discussion, but I am dragging my tired butt to bed without responding. I will try to muster more strength tomorrow.

xo
Pav