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**Marshy** · February 26, 2011, 05:18 AM

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Hi Ravens,

I'm curious why you're posting here rather than on a forum for people with eating disorders. I understand what you say about addictions being similar but they are different in their manifestations and treatments. For example, one thing that many people here try to do is give up alcohol for 30 days to see how that goes - how hard it is, how their relationship with alcohol changes, how they feel different etc. Obviously, you can't give up eating. There must be different ways of starting to tackle an eating disorder.

I'm an alcoholic and my own recovery didn't start until I started talking to other alcoholics, here and at AA. I wouldn't be where I am today if I talked to people with other addictions (food, shopping, gambling, whatever) that were not specific to me.

You're welcome to post here, of course, but I just think you might be better off talking to people with your specific addiction. Is there a reason you're not doing that?
Best wishes.

**KundaliniGirl** · February 26, 2011, 06:53 AM

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Ravens, just wanted to say that I think it's great that you've gotten yourself into a treatment program. Some of this stuff just requires multiple avenues it seems. Will look forward to hearing about your progress.

KG

**Ravenscallingme** · February 26, 2011, 02:34 PM

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Marshy- I'm posting on a few boards, so I have one for OA in particular and another for EDs. I'm here because I've been getting some help from AA meetings, and my counsellor suggested that I worry more about the atmosphere of the board or meeting I go to rather than whether it's for EDs proper. It's true that there are some specifics about EDs that differ from alcoholism, but I'm here just to be around recovering people and get in a sober headspace.

I don't expect an online anything to provide TREATMENT anyway, it's just for support. I've already got some professionals to handle the treatment stuff.. which is good, because I don't have a clue how to deal with it, lol.

Kundalini- Thanks for the encouragement.

Man, I just wish I'd admitted I had a problem and gone to treatment MONTHS ago. I'm not going to anything inpatient (though hey, if I had a spare $25,000 lying around I would), but I am going to a government-sponsored outpatient clinic.

It's true that you don't quit eating the way you quit drinking... but honestly, I think it's really not THAT different. Alcoholics often, I'm told, develop eating disorders when they sober up because to the brain, refined sugar is just as potent a drug as alcohol. So really, no one has it 'easier'. I'm not going to quit eating, but I'm going to quit eating certain foods that cause the same destructuve behaviour in me that alcohol would in an alcoholic... and like an alcoholic, I still have to learn to get through life without using a drug to numb out my feelings or deal with being unhappy or whatever.

I read a lot about how some alcoholics wonder how they'll, say, ever have a good time without booze.

I think in my case.. I just feel really unhappy and joyless all the time. I've spend most of my life feeling alone, depressed, worthless, disgusting (physically AND emotionally/spiritually) and like there was just nothing out there that would ever make me happy.

I *do* know that my brain is sensitive to processed carbs and toxic junk like transfats... I do know that eating the Standard American Diet full of this crap caused me to literally become depressed. When I eat these things, I destroy the serotonin, dopamine and endorphin in my brain. So I literally AM made sad and despairing by them.

But I wonder... was I sad all my life because of these chemicals or because my life just sucked?

Or does it matter? Maybe it was both. I know I was first given sugar when I was two years old.. and within a year my behaviour had deteriorated completely. And it's been tears and rage and depression ever since.

Anyway. I know that by now I have all kinds of negative emotional patterns. I can't go through life just drugging myself up whenever I feel unhappy and depressed. Or when life just seems grim and horrible and like there's nothing that will ever make me happy.

I know alcoholics who sober up learn to enjoy parties and dinners without booze. I've heard people say things like 'how can I go out for dinner, there will be DRINKS there!'

And because I don't have that *particular* problem, I think... 'well, dude...have a club soda. Or have a soft drink.' Because to me, I've lived my entire life without alcohol. Ironically! So I don't see it as a necessary part of anything.

I guess I just need to think about people who go through their entire lives without eating sugar to calm down or relax or comfort themselves. People like this exist... somewhere. xD

**KundaliniGirl** · February 26, 2011, 03:52 PM

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RCM - what an interesting post. You sound like you really have a pretty clear view of your life. I bet with some help that you're going to be able to get a handle on your problem.

I'm really interested in and passionate about food, but for different reasons from you. I probably should have been a naturopath or something along that line. I grew up with a very health conscious mother who ingrained fantastic eating habits in my brain. There was no force, it was just that she always bought fresh and made everything from scratch. We never had sodas or anything like that around. I remember eating some junk as a teenager when I was with my friends, but because of how I grew up, loving healthy food just came naturally to me.

So, a couple of things I'd like to say to you. First, I really believe that if you start eating right, that when you go back to junk, you won't want it. I think you can retrain your brain, just like alcoholics can. And you are so right about the sugar connection to alcohol -- very well-documented here. I've known lots of really overweight people who loved crap food but didn't drink -- they were clearly addicted to junk food. The food thing is not rocket science either. You just eat tons of fresh vegetables and avoid refined and processed foods. If you can afford it (and I would give up lots of stuff to do it) you should eat organic. Meats should be grain-fed when possible and organic when possible. Also strive to buy non GMO foods (genetically modified). The bastards who produce the absolute shit that most Americans eat should be locked up IMHO. Sorry, this happens to be a soapbox of mine. They know how to make that excuse for food taste good - hell, they probably even know how to make it addictive and would do that if it would earn them a buck. We've been brainwashed as a country to think it's ok to eat chemicals. F#&%ing amazing - the criminals!!

Ok, enough of my rant. Let me suggest a book by Michael Pollan called In Defense of Food.

Wishing you lots of success in your new endeavor.

KG

**Ravenscallingme** · February 27, 2011, 02:48 AM

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Kundalini- I agree that when you eat REAL food for a while, you stop wanting the processed crapola. Real food really does taste (and make you feel emotionally and physically) a hell of a lot better. I'm not a foodie of your caliber just yet (though hey, maybe someday I'll be able to safely get into foodiedom.. I wonder if ex-ED people can safely be foodies? lol) but I've read a good bit about the brain chemistry of overeating and so on. I know that most of the SAD crap is fat and sugar bombs with multiple layers of gross processed sugars and toxic fats layered and layered and EW. It's pretty horrible to think about.

I use some supplements.. 5HTP, DLPA, chromium, B vitamins, etc... that I think have broken my addiction to this crap.

What keeps me eating it? All or nothing thinking. "If I'm going to binge and purge anyway, I might as well have sugar, blah blah."

But honestly, I actually freaking PREFER fruit to sugar now. I'd rather have an organic honeycrisp apple than a cupcake. At least the apple tastes like something other than sugar and transfats.

I've heard Michael Pollan speak a few times and I've liked his message. I might pick up that book, I've heard good things about it. I wonder if it's on googlebooks?

Anyway. Thanks so much for the info and the kind words.

Sooo, how is my sobriety going so far? Well.. I feel like I'm making progress, even though I totally binged my face off today.

It's because I've spent a lot of time feeling like I have no choice, I'm forced to do this destructive stuff... but REAL reason I do it is all psychological, emotional, etc. It's not like my blood sugar or the food itself FORCES me.

I guess that's pretty obvious to everyone else, but I've spent a lot of time locked in this mental space of 'I wish I could stop but I CAN'T stop.' Hell, I may still not be able to stop, but at least now I understand that what's driving me is psychological, not hypoglycemia or low brain chemistry or whatever.

I'm thinking now that perfectionistic thinking is a huge problem for me. I just don't really have the tools right now to dismantle my psychological issues... I can't do treatment before I get into treatment. I need psychological help for that... I can't do it by myself- obviously!

I ultimately want to stop entirely, I'm down with the abstinance model- NO food that's toxic to me, NO binging, NO purging, NO starving. But right now all or nothing thinking is keeping me at ALL, at eating sugar and aspartame and crap when I really prefer apples and fresh vegetables... So until my ass gets into treatment, I'm going to do harm reduction. If I binge, I do it on something like yogurt and apples. Better than cupcakes!

I've heard criticisms of this.. 'harm induction' , I've heard it called... but right now, it's the best I can do.

**KundaliniGirl** · February 27, 2011, 08:44 AM

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RCM, hope you'll keep us posted on your treatment. Best of luck. Really pulling for you to get things under control so you can enjoy life. It's short and then ya die as they say.

xx,
KG

**Doggygirl** · February 27, 2011, 03:28 PM

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RC, just wanted to tell you I think I can relate to where you are coming from. My first battle with food came as a teen when I ended up anorexic. Not sure if that experience is connected to my eventual alcoholism or not - some seem to think the two are often linked. At any rate, especially since I quit drinking I have battled with sugar in much the same way I used to battle with AL. If I allow sugar in just a little - it's never just a little.

You sound very well read on the subject. In December I started the protocol that seemed to be indicated for "me" in Julia Ross's book The Diet Cure. (also the author of The Mood Cure) Seems to be a close correlation with the supplement recommendations here at My Way Out, which I used when I started my AF journey. I really think the supplements and especially the aminos are helping - a LOT.

I'm curious which eating related forums you have found beneficial? I'm a sugarholic for sure.

DG

**Ravenscallingme** · February 27, 2011, 06:49 PM

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Kundalini- yup, and I think I've spent enough of my short life feeling like crap due to some substance or another. (Plus, Pollan's book IS on googlebooks!

DD)

Doggygirl- I do think that EDs and alcoholism are pretty close.. they feel the same to me. There seems to be something biochemical that goes on in sensitive people that makes them unable to drink moderately OR eat normally.. not that anyone really seems to have a NORMAL diet these days, with all the horrible chemical 'food' that we eat in North America, lol.

I'm a big fan of Ross' books myself.

One limitation to her method that I've found- it does nothing for psychological issues. I've found her supplement and nutritional advice absolutely stellar for physical problems- she has literally CURED my hypoglycemia and my low brain chemistry. But her books don't really get into the psychological aspect of ED (or alcoholism). Unfortunately what's keeping me using is psychological. And it's taken me a veeeery long time to understand that. The only criticism I have of her books is that they have a certain tone of 'if you take these supplements and these vitamins you will NEVER starve, drink, overeat, binge, purge or eat sugar or drink coffee again and you'll LOVE IT!"

Lol! Well, NOT QUITE. More that it makes it physically easy to quit. But if you're psychologically addicted? ...yeaaah.

Anyway. Some other forums I like are:

Mark's Daily Apple
Mark's Daily Apple
This is a forum for a moderate low carb diet plan that's based around meat, fish and fresh fruits and vegetables. There's good lifestyle advice rolled into the plan too. I don't follow the diet totally, I pick and choose, but I find there's a lot of good info here.

The Active Low-Carber forum
Active Low-Carber Forums - Atkins Diet & Low Carb Support Message Boards
This is a much more general board, but there's lots and LOTS of very knowledgeable people here, and a lot of them are sugar-intolerant like me. Naturally, low carb diets tend to attract the sugarholics.

Natural Medicine
Natural Medicine Talk - Natural Health Forum
Lots of talk about supplements here. I'm a big fan of orthomolecular medicine these days.

The others I go to are all OA or AA-focused, and tend to be more about addiction and ED than eating a healthy diet or sugar per se.

And I always have to slip in a bit of a bitch session about Radiant Recovery&#174 - Dr. Kathleen DesMaisons, author of Potatoes Not Prozac, The Sugar Addict's Total Recovery Program, Your Last Diet... since no discussion of sugar addiction is complete without it. I can't stand the place, it's like a cult. I got banned for life or something when I called the lady guru herself an authoritarian cult leader. Anyway, can't recommend that one, lol.

**Doggygirl** · February 27, 2011, 06:54 PM

Today is quit day

Ravenscallingme;1067280 wrote: And I always have to slip in a bit of a bitch session about Radiant Recovery? - Dr. Kathleen DesMaisons, author of Potatoes Not Prozac, The Sugar Addict's Total Recovery Program, Your Last Diet... since no discussion of sugar addiction is complete without it. I can't stand the place, it's like a cult. I got banned for life or something when I called the lady guru herself an authoritarian cult leader. Anyway, can't recommend that one, lol.

DG

**Ravenscallingme** · February 27, 2011, 07:04 PM

Today is quit day

I'm probably going to sound like a broken record on this point for a while, but I'm really trying to get this point through my head. I've spent SO much time focusing on the wrong thing. Which isn't really THAT bad.. but the problem is, if you're looking in the wrong direction, you can't really GET AT what's really keeping you using.

I am hypoglycemic and I do have low brain chemistry/depression. These are physical realities.

But what I've failed to grasp is that.. dude... these things don't MAKE me binge/purge/starve/etc. (Lucky me, I am both anorexic and bulimic.. like I understand many ED people are, we multitask these days, lol). Sure, my disorder will totally use them as an excuse. 'I'm depressed, I have to use! My blood sugar is low, I have to use!' YEah... bullshit. I don't HAVE to use. It's not these things that makes me do it, it's my thought patterns that 'make' me.

It's me thinking that:
Low blood sugar! Depression! Anxiety! Tiredness! Uncomfortable feeings! = Panic! ED behaviour NOW!

Rather than say...

Low blood sugar = take a freaking glutamine and don't flip out, I only have mild hypoglycemia and at most I just get a bit hungry... so seriously self, take a freaking chillpill. (literally, lol!)

Depression= uhh, how about I just have a cup of tea and some 5HTP?

Exhausted after a long day= how about a bath? Or a long walk if the weather is nice?

Uncomfortable emotions! = well... what do normal people do when they have bad feelings? I guess they go talk to someone they trust, or they go do some light exercise and then later try to work through how they feel when they're calmer... etc!

Basically, I just have bad coping mechanisms. And I'm totally tied up with this mess of anxiety and perfectionistic thinking around food and weight and...

...yeah! Basically that's just a really roundabout way of saying that I have an ED. EDs are psychological (I never believed this, but now I know it's true.) And I need treatment to figure out how to take apart that psychological mess.

But I'm trying to get my head around this... one thing I thought of today, an analogy:

I have dry skin, eczema, etc. In particular, my heels get these really deep dry cracks which bleed and really freaking hurt, actually. This is a physical reality. I've got these cracks and yup, they hurt.

And yeah, I should just put moisturizer on them and mostly I do.

But why, for instance, do I not go:

My heels are cracked open! It hurts! ZOMG FREAKOUT I NEED TO BP RIGHT NOW!!!

...indeed. Why do I not think this?

Seems obvious why not.. that would be really stupid. xD

But why, then, do I in fact think:

I'm depressed! My diet wasn't perfect today! My blood sugar isn't perfect. There WAS SOME SUGAR IN THAT SAUCE OMG! = OMG BINGE RIGHT NOW!

That's.... equally stupid. And yet, I think that all the time.

It seems really obvious to me that when I have cracked heels, when I'm not OMG PERFECT with the moisturizer, even though 99% of the time I remember to do it.... I just put on some damn moisturizer.

So why when I'm say, depressed and my brain says 'OMG BINGE NOW', I don't say 'uhhhh... why don't I just have some 5HTP instead? And... a walk?'

Why indeed.

This is SO, so psychological.

I can't freaking wait to get into treatment. Intake interview for the clinic is tomorrow.

**Doggygirl** · February 27, 2011, 07:12 PM

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I'm very interested to hear how it goes on your journey with this.

DG

**Ravenscallingme** · February 27, 2011, 07:18 PM

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DG- I was seeing somewhere else on the forum that you have 1000 days of sobriety? That's amazing!

I really appreciate the support and advice from someone with that much sobriety under their belt.

**KundaliniGirl** · February 27, 2011, 07:23 PM

Today is quit day

You sound extremely intelligent, RCM, so I can't help but think that you and your therapist will get your arms around this issue.

Do keep us posted when you have time. It's really interesting and enlightening.

Sending you peace and strength,
KG
p.s. Have you tried meditation/yoga? Works wonders for me. And, yes, DG is a shining star and inspiration to so many. We love her.

**Lavande** · February 27, 2011, 09:22 PM

Today is quit day

Hi Ravens,

Just wanted to say welcome to MWO & I hope you can find the right kind of support here!
I would venture to say there are plenty of us here who have or are battling with depression in addition to drinking issues, including me.

In my case the depression came first, unrelieved with Rx antidepressants. So I attempted to drink away my depression, obviously that didn't work. I finally came upon an OTC herbal product called Amoryn. It is marketed to relieve anxiety & depression & it did the trick for me. I slowly decreased my wine intake until I felt ready to really kick it out of my life forever. I had originally thought I would try to moderate at some point but changed my mind after 30 days AF. I was just too happy without AL in my life.

I feel extremely fortunate right now & utterly grateful to the wonderful people here who have supported me. I hope we can provide you with the same.

Please stay in touch

Lav

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