Paradigm Shift

[KittyMcKnitty]

I am so glad to have found this community!

I have been a drunk and druggie for a about 20 years, but I recently had an epiphany due to trying to tackle my weight problem. I read Why We Get Fat by Gary Taubes, and the book explained the pseudoscience that is rampant in the nutrition field and exposed why the traditional advice only exacerbates the problem. The book proposed a new way of looking at obesity outside the calories in calories out dogma. I decided to try the advice in the book and quickly lost 20 pounds, despite still drinking heavily. I kept noticing the similarities between obesity treatment and addiction treatment. What addiction specialists have always told us about our problem (i.e. we are genetically predisposed to alcoholism, we have a disease, we must abstain, etc.) and how to treat it (i.e. therapy, spirituality) has done nothing to curb the number of addicts. There are no good controlled studies to demonstrate that the treatments on offer actually work, but clinicians continue to recommend them. Addiction medicine even has its own charismatic-but-utterly-full-of-shit version of Dr. Oz (Dr. Drew).

As a result of my new way of thinking, I've decided to disregard any information about my problem that doesn't have scientific support or at least a reasonable hypothesis.

I still drink, but no longer every day and no longer as much with the adoption of a low-carb diet and a gram of l-glutamine a couple of times a day. This is remarkable progress, and it hasn't been difficult at all. It's enough to convince me that I don't have a psychological problem, but that there is something physiological going on.

I hope some of you will share your thoughts about what I wrote and also recommend other interventions.

[allankay]

Paradigm Shift

Hello Kitty and Welcome.

I very much like your scientific approach and look forward to reading your posts.

I chose a slightly different path. My motivation to give up alcohol is purely emotional and monetary. Alcohol caused me so much emotional distress that I just could not take it anymore. Drinking was becoming more difficult than not drinking for me.

This is a great place full of wonderful people with very similar stories. So stay strong and update us on your progress.

ALLAN

[Lavande]

Paradigm Shift

Hi Kitty,

Welcome to MWO, this is a good place
There are thousands of members here, not all active but I'll bet some share your views. I have no idea what causes addiction, it could be emotional, it could be physiological or perhaps a bit of both.

In my case I was a normal drinker until I ran into a prolonged period of depression & anxiety. I did what a lot of women do & turned to a bottle of wine in an attempt to self-medicate. Of course it got out of hand after a number of years & caused me physical harm, not to mention increasing my anxiety & depression. I would quit for a number of weeks, even months but I always returned to drinking. I finally figured out that I had to treat the depression & anxiety first then I would be able quit & stay quit. I tried the usual antidepressant route, it didn't work. I stumbled over an herbal OTC
which did the trick. I worked on a program to change my learned habit of negative thinking into positive thinking. Then I quit - for good

If you haven't already go to the Health store here on the site & download the MWO book. It's a great place to get started!
Wishing you the best!

Lav

[LibraryGirl]

Paradigm Shift

Kitty, I am very interested in your findings. Did the book you read have anything to do with the way you're eating now (low carb), or was that something you adopted as a way to control AL intake along with L-Glut? I ask because I am not familiar with the book, although I do want to check it out!

[pixie]

Paradigm Shift

Welcome Kitty!

I'm also very interested in the physiological aspect of excessive drinking. There's an obvious connection with blood sugar, but the metabolic pathways are so complex which seems to make cause and effect very murky. Add in genetic differences and brain chemical imbalances, and it's no wonder that there's no simple solution.

One thing I have always wondered - most people agree that this is a progressive disease, so what happens to us physiologically that causes this? What happens in our bodies when we reach a point where we cannot revert to an earlier level (or mode) of drinking? (Or many of us are unable to - again lots of differences between folks.)

I believe there's a psychological aspect as well, especially when talking about why we drink.

Since you mentioned l-glutamine, I wanted to point you towards the Holistic Healing section - there's lots of good posts about supplements, including links to lots of information.

Best wishes

[KittyMcKnitty]

Paradigm Shift

LibraryGirl;1376443 wrote: Kitty, I am very interested in your findings. Did the book you read have anything to do with the way you're eating now (low carb), or was that something you adopted as a way to control AL intake along with L-Glut? I ask because I am not familiar with the book, although I do want to check it out!

I changed my eating based on the book and the effect on my alcohol intake was a pleasant side-effect.

[KittyMcKnitty]

Paradigm Shift

pixie;1376449 wrote:
One thing I have always wondered - most people agree that this is a progressive disease, so what happens to us physiologically that causes this? What happens in our bodies when we reach a point where we cannot revert to an earlier level (or mode) of drinking? (Or many of us are unable to - again lots of differences between folks.)

It's my opinion that it has something to do with metabolic derangement. The same diet that allowed me to be lean in my early 20's made me fat in my 30's, probably because my insulin sensitivity was continuously declining.

I think it can also be attributed to diminishing gut health. If you drink every day, you damage your gut (even small amounts of alcohol can contribute to leaky gut syndrome). Most of the body's serotonin is made in the gut, and serotonin and dopamine are two big players in most theories of addiction. So, if you drink because you have low serotonin levels, then you damage your gut, resulting in even lower serotonin levels, you will then crave even more alcohol. BTW, L-glutamine decreases gut permeability.

To sum up, I theorize that if you were a raging alcoholic who quit drinking and proceeded to heal any metabolic derangement (with diet) and healed your gut (with diet, supplements and probiotics) that you could revert to a prior mode or level of drinking were you to start again.

It isn't particularly surprising to me that people who quit drinking but never heal the damage to their bodies and metabolisms and instead proceed to consume tons of gluten and sugar and cigarettes for the next 10 years are far worse off when they start drinking again than when they quit.

[KittyMcKnitty]

Paradigm Shift

pixie;1376449 wrote:
One thing I have always wondered - most people agree that this is a progressive disease, so what happens to us physiologically that causes this? What happens in our bodies when we reach a point where we cannot revert to an earlier level (or mode) of drinking? (Or many of us are unable to - again lots of differences between folks.)

It's my opinion that it has something to do with metabolic derangement. The same diet that allowed me to be lean in my early 20's made me fat in my 30's, probably because my insulin sensitivity was continuously declining.

I think it can also be attributed to diminishing gut health. If you drink every day, you damage your gut (even small amounts of alcohol can contribute to leaky gut syndrome). Most of the body's serotonin is made in the gut, and serotonin and dopamine are two big players in most theories of addiction. So, if you drink because you have low serotonin levels, then you damage your gut, resulting in even lower serotonin levels, you will then crave even more alcohol. BTW, L-glutamine decreases gut permeability.

To sum up, I theorize that if you were a raging alcoholic who quit drinking and proceeded to heal any metabolic derangement (with diet) and healed your gut (with diet, supplements and probiotics) that you could revert to a prior mode or level of drinking were you to start again.

It isn't particularly surprising to me that people who quit drinking but never heal the damage to their bodies and metabolisms and instead proceed to consume tons of gluten and sugar and cigarettes for the next 10 years are far worse off when they start drinking again than when they quit.

[LibraryGirl]

Paradigm Shift

One thing that is seemingly glossed over in the book (yes I got it on my Kindle tonight ) is weight training. He mentions that you would have to increase your cardio exercise every year in order to maintain the same benefits, eventually to the point it wouldn't be possible...but, that is refuted by many in the weight-training community and those who've successfully lost weight (significant amounts). By building muscle mass fat burning *does* increase, and ever increasing cardio amounts are unnecessary.

Also, he mentions that rats that are starved will still be fat (if they have been surgically altered that way, to simulate an obese human) even if they are not given enough to eat--they will use less energy to maintain their weight, or to increase it if they've been starved. We all have seen the results of bariatric surgery, which is essentially starvation because the stomach is altered so much that only tiny amounts of food can be consumed. What we have all also seen is dramatic weight loss. If what he is saying is true, that the way our fat is stored (on fat people) causes us to retain (the fat) either through inactivity or overeating, then how does our body get lean when forced to not eat (due to the smaller stomach)?

I am reading it and nearly 45% of the way through it, and I do like some of what he is saying. I hope that it enlightens me enough that I can actually adopt a new way of eating that will help me lose weight. However, I do see some discrepencies. Your thoughts?

[Kradle123]

Paradigm Shift

Hi Kitty and :welcome:

Fantastic thread and I share your opinions completely. I am wondering if your book why we get fat is in any way Similar to Susan Powter's book Stop The Insanity in which she too turned the diet industry on its head. She also touched on addictions (her own AL addiction in particular) but don't know if she continued the research.

I found her theories helpful, common sense and different but unfortunately she was a bit of a public blow hard and I think eventually people dismissed her.

She lives about 10 miles from me by the way...she is odd but you gotta love her

Anyway, just wondering if this book builds on her original research.

Hugs,
:l

[KittyMcKnitty]

Paradigm Shift

LibraryGirl;1376520 wrote: One thing that is seemingly glossed over in the book (yes I got it on my Kindle tonight ) is weight training. He mentions that you would have to increase your cardio exercise every year in order to maintain the same benefits, eventually to the point it wouldn't be possible...but, that is refuted by many in the weight-training community and those who've successfully lost weight (significant amounts). By building muscle mass fat burning *does* increase, and ever increasing cardio amounts are unnecessary.
I think the point of the book is that what we have been told about why we get fat is wrong, including the need for aerobic exercise (the current recommendation by the powers that be is an hour and a half a day). I agree with you that anaerobic exercise is beneficial for metabolic health. I think it's more complicated than the simple muscle-burns-more-calories-than-fat traditional wisdom. I think that anaerobic exercise effects hormones in ways that jogging doesn't. But that is outside the scope of the book. I know that since I changed my diet, I'm dropping weight with no exercise of any type, and I was super fat.

LibraryGirl;1376520 wrote: Also, he mentions that rats that are starved will still be fat (if they have been surgically altered that way, to simulate an obese human) even if they are not given enough to eat--they will use less energy to maintain their weight, or to increase it if they've been starved. We all have seen the results of bariatric surgery, which is essentially starvation because the stomach is altered so much that only tiny amounts of food can be consumed. What we have all also seen is dramatic weight loss. If what he is saying is true, that the way our fat is stored (on fat people) causes us to retain (the fat) either through inactivity or overeating, then how does our body get lean when forced to not eat (due to the smaller stomach)?

Mere starvation will make anyone thinner - even obese rats, to a point. I used to work with several women (nurses) who had bariatric surgery, and in my own anecdotal experience, they either regained all the weight (they said the stretched their stomach back out), or they were still chubby - although much thinner - and extremely sedentary (i.e. their bodies were conserving energy to preserve fat stores). They all consumed 1000 calories a day or less (serious starvation). You would expect a woman of average height who consumes 1000 calories a day to be emaciated, but they were all dough-ey.

Without an extreme measure like bariatric surgery or Fen-Phen, it's unreasonable to think of calorie restriction as a long-term solution to obesity. It's a rare bird who's willing to suffer hunger every day for the rest of his or her life. Incidentally, this is why I think traditional addiction treatment doesn't work. Any treatment that requires prolonged suffering is bound to fail.

LibraryGirl;1376520 wrote: I am reading it and nearly 45% of the way through it, and I do like some of what he is saying. I hope that it enlightens me enough that I can actually adopt a new way of eating that will help me lose weight. However, I do see some discrepencies. Your thoughts?

I'm a little biased, because I decided to try his hypothesis and immediately lost weight and had diminished craving for alcohol. When I read it I was mostly angered by what so-called experts had been telling us with no evidence, and it reminded me of my struggle with addiction and the absolute confidence the so-called addiction experts have in their treatments that don't work. You're mileage may vary!

[KittyMcKnitty]

Paradigm Shift

Kradle123;1376523 wrote: Hi Kitty and :welcome:

Fantastic thread and I share your opinions completely. I am wondering if your book why we get fat is in any way Similar to Susan Powter's book Stop The Insanity in which she too turned the diet industry on its head. She also touched on addictions (her own AL addiction in particular) but don't know if she continued the research.
:l

Why We Get Fat doesn't address addiction, but it's exploration on the pseudoscience in the nutrition industry just got me thinking about the pseudoscience in the addiction industry. I am actually interested in reading Powter's book, because it sounds like her experience (i.e. diminished cravings after cutting carbs) is similar to mine. She is definitely a publicity hound and not what you would call a serious scientist, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have anything to add. [BTW, what is she like???]

I just think that most professionals who treat addiction (e.g. Dr. Drew and his ilk) have blood on their hands. When you can admit that your patients very regularly die of a disorder you are treating them for and at the same time refuse to admit that your treatment needs any research or improvement, your cognitive dissonance can be considered a super power. These people will tell you that the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, but when you say you've been to rehab ten times and still can't quit drinking, they will always recommend one more trip to rehab.

[LibraryGirl]

Paradigm Shift

Kitty, on the addiction side of the coin: If it is indeed physiological, doesn't baclofen and other meds of it's type address that? There are many proponents of baclofen on this site. I agree that it seems to be the least researched way of treating addiction, with rehab and psychological counselling being the "norm".

I'm very interested and excited to be reading the book, and I appreciate the recommendation. I am also curious if you believe Taub's findings to be significantly different from Dr. Atkins?


LG

[KittyMcKnitty]

Paradigm Shift

LibraryGirl;1376591 wrote: Kitty, on the addiction side of the coin: If it is indeed physiological, doesn't baclofen and other meds of it's type address that? There are many proponents of baclofen on this site. I agree that it seems to be the least researched way of treating addiction, with rehab and psychological counselling being the "norm".
There are more enlightened clinicians who are using medicine to treat what they characterize as a medical problem, but they are rare, and in my experience they still encourage their patients to attend AA, despite any evidence that it's helpful. The rehab industry will only address withdrawal medically, but that makes sense when you think about it. People who run rehabs would be out of jobs we started actually treating addiction like the medical problem that they say it is. Charging people $50 grand to sit in a circle and tell horror stories is much more profitable.

LibraryGirl;1376591 wrote: I'm very interested and excited to be reading the book, and I appreciate the recommendation. I am also curious if you believe Taub's findings to be significantly different from Dr. Atkins?

Atkins read a lot of the same research that Taubes did, but Atkins did it first. I think the distinction is that Atkins wrote a diet book and Taubes is more concerned with exposing what has happened in the field of nutrition that has made us all fat.

[LibraryGirl]

Paradigm Shift

On that note, I hesitate to make this a thread about dieting, yet I can't resist! I am eating low carb now, and not following any one "diet". Did you adopt a particular diet, count calories, carbs, etc.?

Off to fry some steaks!