Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

[SpringerRider]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

houtx770;535671 wrote:
What made you "fall off the wagon" after 12 years?? I have read your posts with great interest...my heart goes out to your wife and the trauma of losing her retarded brother. I know we all have stories. I do - I became the alcoholic of the family, my older sister is just the wacko one, my younger sister seeks solice in food. We all have our demons..

Go Cardinals!! (I always root for the underdawg!!)

I’ll give you the Cliff note version. I left AA and did okay for several years. I started travelling with my business and was in Mexico with some salesmen, gathering specs. They asked if I would do one of those Tequila shots with them, you know the salt and lime silliness. I thought for a while and said, “why not”. I’d like to say that I went on a bender ever since but that was not the case. If I did, it would have been easier.

I was able to drink “normally” for a couple of years as long as I stayed under two or three drinks. That is what I did. It was as if there was a threshold I stayed under, the craving would not surface. But gradually I began to go over the edge and it seemed that each time ratcheted up my drinking. In the last year it became serious again. The first relief I’ve had, in some time has come from the Sinclair Method.

I will be the first to admit that I am putting a lot of eggs in this basket. I am taking a little pill and drinking while telling myself this will pay off in three or four more months. But if I am wrong, I have not lost much. My drinking has definitely diminished. I have non-craving days! If at the end, I am no better, I will probably be where I would be anyhow. So any gain is a plus. My insurance pays for my Naltrexone so my co-pay is only $3. I have nothing to lose.

I am the one and only alcoholic in our family. Since we are 7 siblings we have a little of everything.

Sorry about your birds but they both played a hell of a game. I was a Steelers fan. I am just be able to breathe again. Two years in a row, the super bowl has been a nail biter. I am down to my knuckles!

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

SpringerRider;535721 wrote:
But your sour-cream example is a perfect analogy why I am not onboard with aversion therapy. I have puked my guts out, brought my blood pressure to the brink of a stroke, did and said things that made me feel so humiliated and guilty that I felt suicide was the only solution. All were directly and immediately related to drinking of alcohol. The pain was so great that I can't imagine a greater gift in hell.

Aversion is based on the pleasure/pain principle and a rational approach to the world.

Well, I have several disagreements with you here. First off, the effectiveness (sometimes) of aversion is not based at all on a "rational approach to the world." It is purely based on a non-conscious process in which a behavior (e.g., eating sour cream) is paired with a highly aversive consequence. In most cases, the aversive consequence must occur quite rapidly, for it to effectively create a sense of aversion in future encounters with, for example, the sour cream; but in the case of food, we have an evolutionary adaptation that allows us to develop aversion even if the unpleasant consequence occurs as long as maybe an hour or two after ingesting the food.

Even though alcohol is ingested like sour cream, the aversive consequences just don't happen rapidly enough. First we get a nice sensation of pleasure, which might last for one or several hours; then typically we experience little sensations of any sort; only much later (typically) do we develop the horrific symptoms associated with withdrawal/hangover. Accordingly, the way humans use and experience alcohol does not set up an aversive response, even though we suffer terribly.

In order to use aversion therapy for alcohol, we have to administer an unpleasant consequence very soon after alcohol consumption; for example, a whiff of ammonia. This sort of treatment is used with sex offenders... They are asked to engage in a typical fantasy involving their preferred target victim, and self-administer ammonia when they become aroused. The results are not very good, however, undoubtedly because human motivational systems are much more complex than is generally recognized.

Which brings us to the "pleasure-pain principle." This is of course an extremely over-simplified view of human behavior and motivation. Human beings both receive and anticipate a very mixed bag of pleasant and unpleasant consequences when they plan their behavior or make decisions; decisions are based on a very complicated group of multiple motivational factors, and much of the decision-making goes on outside of consciousness. Most of the factors that influence our behavior are impossible to discern. We just don't know "why" we do the things we do, in many cases. We can eloquently describe our reasons, in retrospect... but that really doesn't mean much.

The biochemistry of addiction is NOT fully understood at this point. There are some lines of research, some theories, or models, that are being tested. As yet, none of them is generally accepted in the scientific community. The "endorphin" model that you describe may represent part of the picture, but at most only a part.

Again, I am in no way opposed to research based on the "Sinclair Method." And I hope that all of you who are trying it out have a good experience with it. It sounds as if many of you have been able to significantly reduce your drinking, so far, and so it might at least be considered (at least so far) a really good tool for harm reduction. A "cure"? We'll see. I remain very skeptical. But I wish you well.

[SpringerRider]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Again, I am in no way opposed to research based on the "Sinclair Method." And I hope that all of you who are trying it out have a good experience with it. It sounds as if many of you have been able to significantly reduce your drinking, so far, and so it might at least be considered (at least so far) a really good tool for harm reduction. A "cure"? We'll see. I remain very skeptical. But I wish you well.

I am optimistically skeptical. I do see positive change. I will report what I experience, albeit subjective, in the most honest and accurate manner that I able to muster. I cannot provide anything else.

As I have stated earlier, I am not concerned whether Naltrexone leads to a cure that permits social drinking or to abstinence. What I am after is the cessation of craving.

[rv9]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

SpringerRider;535909 wrote: As I have stated earlier, I am not concerned whether Naltrexone leads to a cure that permits social drinking or to abstinence. What I am after is the cessation of craving.

SR, remind me again how long you've been on Sinclair.

[SpringerRider]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Into my thrid week.

[rv9]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

SpringerRider;536074 wrote: Into my thrid week.

Okay. Whatever you're feeling now will only get better/stronger as time goes by. I didn't make any real effort to cut down or quit for two months. I drank daily. When two months rolled around I had to start going without because I was running out of Naltrexone. That's when I noticed I wasn't craving as much. I went days without and it was a cinch. I'm certain it would have been impossible before.

[gyco]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

there is an old saying ,what ever works,even AA says its not for all,you all realise this debate between the intellectual has been going on for 100 s if not 1000 s of years, i learned in treatment from a very intelligent doctor,who had an addiction,[helping people with this illness and other addictions,all addictions]ahahahah ,gyco what dont you get ,you just cant drink,it seems like your debating,my way is better then yours,there is no cure for this illness of sort,i said it b4,like Nancy said,to think the word forever,its frikkin scary,you all no when you put Al in your body your poisoning yourself,is rubbing alcohol any different,think about it gyco

[rv9]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Gyco;536193 wrote: gyco what dont you get ,you just cant drink,it seems like your debating,my way is better then yours,there is no cure for this illness of sort,i said it b4,like Nancy said,to think the word forever,its frikkin scary,you all no when you put Al in your body your poisoning yourself,

That was sort of hard to follow, but...

I don't think any of us are saying "our way" is better than anything. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say there isn't a cure - I surely wouldn't say it very adamantly. My problem is with those who dimiss Sinclair with no further thought or research. I'm convinced those people are addicted to their addiction.

As far as alcohol being a poison, yup, but take my great-grandmother who had a single glass of blackberry brandy every day of her adult life. Was she harming herself? Youbetcha. But the heart-healthy benefits of drinking that brandy probably contributed to her living to 104 years old - and even after that long the toxic effects of the alcohol hadn't caught up with her. It's all a matter of balance.

As it is, none of us have any business worrying about the benefits of drinking because for us they are well outweighed by its detrimental effects. Maybe someday, but not right now.

[gyco]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

just curious,that was sort of hard to follow,trust me where i was it wasnt hard to understand, i was in a sanitarium do to my drinking habit,no if s or buts,people debate alchoholism all the time,it doesnt take a genious to no,when your falling down drunk theres a problem ,if you consume large quantities each day you have a problem, as far as the lady your talking about,she wasnt with alchohol problem,but thats my opinion

[beatle]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Who would have thought the blood, guts and soul of this site would be here on the meds thread?... but this is by far one of the most interesting discussions I have read yet here.

As an aside, I'd like to add that some people have serious illnesses that (indirectly) cause them to drink. This often requires other kinds of treatments as well.

I'd also like to point out that it seems people keep "forgetting" what SpringerRider keeps explaining about his *motives*... he wants to be rid of the cravings (don't we all?), and is not seeking a "cure" from drinking itself. I think this is a key point.

[bloggy]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

beatle;536300 wrote:

I'd also like to point out that it seems people keep "forgetting" what SpringerRider keeps explaining about his *motives*... he wants to be rid of the cravings (don't we all?), and is not seeking a "cure" from drinking itself. I think this is a key point.

I think at the end of the day that is what most of us want- I don't give a damn if I never drink again or if I am a social drinker- all I want is to be rid of the white knuckling, constant worrying and thinking about the damn stuff.

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

beatle;536300 wrote:
I'd also like to point out that it seems people keep "forgetting" what SpringerRider keeps explaining about his *motives*... he wants to be rid of the cravings (don't we all?), and is not seeking a "cure" from drinking itself. I think this is a key point.

Hi, Beatle, how ya' doin?

I, for one am not "forgetting" about SR's motives... the thread was started about the book, and the theories behind the "Sinclair Method," both of which I find intriguing... and that's what I am responding to. I don't think anybody is questioning SR's motives...

The whole question of "getting rid of 'cravings'" opens up another kettle of fish, however. One I won't go into, right now.

[beatle]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Marbella, I agree, that is what we all want. I was only trying to differentiate between ways of interpreting or denoting the word "cure". Semantics really. I thought maybe it was clouding the discussion. But should leave well enough alone.

I'm doing fine, thanks, WIP.

[SpringerRider]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Initially I started the thread to explore the book in question but like most threads, it took on a life of its own.
I am not interested in "recruiting" others into my program. That is for them to decide. If I truly believe this is a break-through, I will sound a Clarion call at the top of my lungs.

My goal is to take the Sinclair method wherever it takes me, this side of sanity, for six months. At that point, I will make my judgement as whether to continue his method or move onto something else.

But this thread is predominantly to discuss the book.

[beatle]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Do you mean to discuss the book, or the Sinclair method? I, for one haven't read the book, although I've read and heard a good deal about the Sinclair method. Does that mean I should butt out?

btw, somebody posted here on another thread a link to an interview with Sinclair. I listened to the whole thing, and it is very interesting. He explains everything himself, including the background of how he came to his conclusions.