Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Thanks, Lena! Good leads. I'll try to get those two in full text. Will let you know what I think.

[SpringerRider]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Virgil;537902 wrote: SR, many thanks. I have now listened to the PODcast and it sounds very interesting. I have also managed to order a copy of the book that started this thread. I now need to convince a GP/Psychiatrist to prescribe Naltrexone for me. That could be easier said than done but I shall persevere. It is perhaps fortunate that The Times newspaper (online) carried a very recent article on this subject so I'm gathering up my evidence for the case at present. If anyone is interested in the article, it can be found at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle5484285.ece.

Virgil

Thanks Virgil,
That was an excellent article. I would just lie to MD and say you want it to stay sober. I am lucky in that my GP respects my opinion. I will be getting a refill this weekend. Good luck.

[bloggy]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

SpringerRider;538096 wrote: Thanks Virgil,
That was an excellent article. I would just lie to MD and say you want it to stay sober. I am lucky in that my GP respects my opinion. I will be getting a refill this weekend. Good luck.

Ditto Virgil, Thanks very much for the link.

When I went to a doctor here in Spain and asked for Naltrexone he had absolutely no idea what it was. (It's called Revia here- he did not know, nor did I!).

He told me "Here in Spain we give Antabuse, blah blah..."

I replied I have lived in Spain since I was 16, and have tried Antabuse but it does not work for me.
He wrote me out a prescription without even reading about what he was was prescribing, but I think if I had told him I was planning to drink with it, I may have ran into some problems.

In the medical books it seems to be described as an anti-craving med, so maybe at times it is better to let them think that is what we are using it for- however I think if we do that when/if the Sinclair method works for us we should go back and tell them exactly what we did- the narrow mindedness of many doctors drives me mad- but that is a whole new rant.

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

lenaleed;538009 wrote: BTW, the Sinclair cite is from 1999. Here's one that goes to the heart of the matter (I actually read the article) Agosti, V. The efficacy of treatment in reducing alcohol consumption: A meta-analysis. International Journal of Addictions 30:1067-1077 (1995). I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this one.

LenaHmm. OK, I read the Agosti article. Actually, I think I had read it before. It seems to indicate, as I mentioned above, that the Naltrexone studies (as of that time) were showing that, overall, participants did not achieve much in the way of abstinence, but did significantly reduce their consumption. Also that drop-out rates are high, possibly due in part to Naltrexone side-effects, but possibly not. That still (as of the most recent articles I have seen) seems to be an open question. Nothing in that article indicates that, at that time, there were any studies in any published journals that actually used the "Sinclair Method," which is what I am still wondering about. Where are all the published reports about the "controlled, double-blind studies" that have been actually conducted, using the "Sinclair Method"? Here's what you said earlier:

Seventy-two clinical trials, including double-blind, placebo-controlled studies, done throughout the world, have shown Naltrexone to produce significant benefit for reduced alcohol consumption when used according to Sinclair's protocol (naltroxone+drinking).

If they are just "clinical trials" (meaning nobody knows whether the methodology was any good), and if there aren't any studies published in peer-reviewed, mainstream journals, then this takes me back to what I was originally saying... it seems to me that this is why the scientific and treatment world (even those who are NOT wedded to the 12-Step abstinence-only model) is quite hesitant about what appear to be overblown (or at least, premature) claims being made by Sinclair and his followers...

What is apparently NOT premature is the apparently growing consistency in findings that Naltrexone, for those who can tolerate it, can be helpful in a program of reduced, controlled, alcohol consumption.

But, from what I have seen so far, I don't think that Sinclair's theory (that drinking alcohol, while taking Naltrexone, will enable alcohol-dependent humans to eliminate and extinguish their lack of control over, and excessive/compulsive desire for, alcohol) has yet been supported by scientific study.

I still haven't laid hands (or eyes) on the '99 Sinclair article/study. Is it a conceptual piece, or a report of a completed trial?

[aurora borialis]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

According to my Clinical research ethics classs instructor many articles written in mainstream medical journals are "ghost written" by reps in pharmacutical companies to promote their medications and then they pay physicians to sign them. It has happenend many times with anti-depressants. So I don't put alot of stock in them. Note: Vioxx and many others. Many meds are marketed and not properly tested because companies want them out there making money and they are backed up with mainstream articles and multiple clinical trials.

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Potato, that is absolutely true. Deplorable, but true. The problem is this: if we give up on the scientific method, because it is imperfect, and because sometimes it does not prevent fraud and error... what are we left with? Anybody can come up with his own brand of snake oil in his kitchen, and promote it as a proven "cure" for cancer... or alcoholism?

I am trained as a scientist-practitioner, and have done a bit of research, myself. I am not starry-eyed about the process. But it has gotten us a long, long way in medicine and other fields of human endeavor. Until something better comes along (and I don't know what that would be!), then I think we need to use it to the hilt. And keep our eyes open for fraud and sloppiness. Eventually, it all comes out, which is the beauty of the method; if I claim great results in my lab, but over time nobody else gets even decent results... then everyone knows that I was doing something wrong. That's why early results, anecdotal results, case studies, and unpublished clinical trials don't get much respect in the world of science.

[lenaleed]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Work -- It's a completed trial. Potato, naltrexone is available as a generic so there's no money in it but it is always important to know who's funding the study. The pharmaceutical companies get no love from me. Work, you are hard sell and that's a good thing. Skepticism is healthy as long as it's healthy skepticism. I have a different take on the Agosti paper; a finding that naltrexone + drinking shows, as you said, significant reduction in consumption is huge. I trust my gut and my gut tells me this is not snake oil and it's beginning to work. I wish you'd get the book and if you want to throw it away I'll donate fifteen bucks to make-a-wish or the charity of your choice. Whew. I'm exhausted. Best to all. Lena

[aurora borialis]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Both excellent answers. From what I have been told. The safest meds are the oldest ones that have been around for a long time and all the corperate interests are out of it. I agree Nal is also available as generic so it is not in that situation. However because of the Sinclair method I wonder if we will have to deal with a battle If it starts to help tons of ppl. I am glad we can still get it for alcohol cravings. Also to work in progress I agree we have to trust to a certian extent because otherwise what do we have. I just took a really good eye opening course called "Ethics in Clinical Research" which really shows the underbelly of the pharmaceutical industry.

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Potato, that sounds like an excellent course you just took. An educated public is key to putting a stop to some (I wish, all) of the crap some of these companies have been getting away with.

Lena, I hope you know that I am on your side in this whole larger issue of helping people to recover from their alcohol problems; and yes, I do agree that Naltrexone shows a lot of promise for helping some people to control and diminish their consumption! The part I am skeptical about is the claim that Sinclair and Eskapa are making about the "Sinclair Method" as a way to eliminate the cravings, compulsion, and lack of control over drinking by means of a process of extinction. I agree that the Naltrexone itself, while it is being used, has that apparent effect on the user. After stopping the Naltrexone for a few months, or a year or so? That is where I have very serious doubts. If that does turn out to be the way it really works, then it will be a very good thing! We'll see.

[SpringerRider]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

A Work in Progress;538244 wrote: After stopping the Naltrexone for a few months, or a year or so? That is where I have very serious doubts. If that does turn out to be the way it really works, then it will be a very good thing! We'll see.

The program is that we will NEVER drink again without taking Naltrexone. That does not mean that we live on Nal, but simply that we take it if we choose to drink. E.g. one of the testimonials of a very heavy drinker that reached abstinance through Nal states that he had a golden capsule that he wears around his neck which contains two Nal tablets, just in case.

We use the term cure but we will never be able to drink without Nal, lest be return to alcoholic habits. But so many just choose to stay abstinate since the craving element is gone.

I have several friends and emploees who JUST DON'T drink. None expressed religious reasons or other external factors; they just don't find the activity enjoyable and as one said, it seems like a lot of risk (health and driving) for something that doesn't really do much for him. These people are just naturally not interested in drinking. I know that sounds almost like a foriegn language to us, but maybe that is where I will end up. And that will be just fine with me.

[wxyz]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

I was wondering the same thing! I have the book and I've been taking nal for 15 days now but I'm not really seeing a difference and I'm wondering if I'm missing something. Eskapa refers to Sinclair's "happy hour" in his book- I'm not sure if I should be taking Nal and going about the way I normally drink or if I'm supposed to moderate my intake and keep it down to a certain amount of time. I wish he would've been more specific in the book. I know someone on mwo said they talk to Eskapa- any chance we might be able to get clarification on this?
btw, this is my first post and I'm happy that you all are out there for support-- I've been reading for some time now but haven't posted. I want more than anything to kick drinking and have vowed to stick with the Nal for 4 months. I will do that no matter what but I have to say I'm feeling a bit defeated after 15 days and no difference. My drinking diary is like a broken record- took 50mg of Nal, craving is at level 10, drank 8-12 units.

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

SpringerRider;538253 wrote: The program is that we will NEVER drink again without taking Naltrexone. That does not mean that we live on Nal, but simply that we take it if we choose to drink. ...
We use the term cure but we will never be able to drink without Nal, lest be return to alcoholic habits. But so many just choose to stay abstinate since the craving element is gone.

Ah! OK, I see. I was confused about that point! All that talk about extinction, and never having cravings again... I was assuming that at some point people were hoping that, after using naltrexone while drinking for several months, their brain function and structure would have changed so that it would be as if their brains had no tendency toward, or experience with, addiction; no urgent desire for alcohol, and no spiraling back into lack of control... They could, then, safely drink like a "normal" person (without needing naltrexone). That is what I was finding to be so outlandish.

However, I can certainly imagine that so long as a person is willing to continue to use the naltrexone forever, then theoretically they will, or at least might, stay in control of their drinking, forever.

[lenaleed]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

WIP -- I have the strong sense that you are on the side of successful outcomes, and that is the side to be on in my book. I am so grateful for the frank discussion and the effort you are putting into this dialogue. The truth will set us free: Free not only of our addiction but free of all the exploitation to which our addiction leaves us vulnerable. To succeed on this method, we are asked to get a three-to six month supply of a generic drug and maybe shell out fourteen bucks for a paperback book. If the purveyors of this method are trying to exploit us they're pretty darned inept. The risk is we continue to drink as we usually do for a few weeks. That beats a second mortgage for a $30-+++ rehab stay with a maybe 10 % prognosis for recovery. We just might experience a "significant decrease in alcohol consumption." So, why not?

I hope you're willing to keep digging. You also balance your skepticism with respect for those of us who have chosen the drinking + naltrexone protocol. You're keeping it real. That's golden. We Strictly Sinclair types seem to be starting to see real results. That's, umm, platinum. I'm off to "take my medicine" so no more posting for me today but what an adventure this day has been. -- Lena

[lenaleed]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

wxyz -- Read the book! The happy hour was for the rats! The answers to your questions are in the book. You will not see meaningful results in 15 days. The book explains all this. Take good care of yourself -- lena

[lenaleed]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

WIP -- Okay, one more post. You are an academic; imagine how valuable your input would be if you actually had read the book?? Really? - Lena