Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

[SpringerRider]

I have a little trouble with Eskapa's book.
Eskapa was not an alcoholic. He states his incentive to investagate alcoholism was an alcoholic friend.

In chapter 9, he gives the upper moderate limits and later refers to these as safe limits. Are we expected to stay within these limits while taking Nal? Hell, if I only drank 5 units per night and 24 per week, I would not need to quit!

We are alcoholics and I knock out five shots in an hour. Does anyone else see this as an unrealistic assessment of expectations?

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

There are numerous problems with Eskapa's book, and you are pointing out a couple of them. Of course a MAJOR red flag arises when someone uses the words "cure" and "alcoholism" in the title of his book. It reeks of fraud, or at least of the certainty that the author is exaggerating the potential benefits of his ideas, and thus preying on people's fears, hopes, and vulnerabilities.

Also, the term "alcoholic" is vague, poorly defined. Even the current "scientific" term, "dependence" on alcohol/drugs, is not well-defined, and it is generally agreed that there is no hard-and-fast dividing line between those whose dependency is so severe that they should remain permanently and totally alcohol/drug-free, and those who, with careful and diligent effort, might be able to moderate their consumption.

Finally, the case for using ANY medication to permanently alleviate severe drug/alcohol dependence is far, far from being well-demonstrated by a consistent, persuasive body of objective, peer-reviewed research.

[nancy]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

I also have reservations about that book and aproach, though it did seem exciting to me when I first heard about it and seems worth a try.

To Work In Progress:
You said it hasn't been well-demonstrated but is this because the studies haven't been done?
And I suppose abstinence also hasn't been well-demonstrated right? Seems like there are high failure rates with AA.
It's a tough conditition to treat and I think people need to find approaches that work for them as individuals.

[Evie.Lou]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

I bought the book...Read half way thru...then put it in the trash...least anyone else would get hold of the copy, I bought. Sounded like shallow uninformed, ignorant advise...and kind of scary, to think that it is on book shelves, everywhere??? BEST SELLER (I hope not).
Some of what he said made my skin crawl ...Sorta reminds me of corner MADAM Zelda's doing "spiritual counseling' ...not a CLUE...NOT A CLUE !!!!

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

nancy;534189 wrote:
To Work In Progress:
You said it hasn't been well-demonstrated but is this because the studies haven't been done?
And I suppose abstinence also hasn't been well-demonstrated right? Seems like there are high failure rates with AA.
It's a tough conditition to treat and I think people need to find approaches that work for them as individuals.

Nancy, good questions. What I meant was that the studies that have been done are still considered preliminary, early, or provisional, at this time, and (to my knowledge) most or all of them have been conducted by the person who is promoting the method of "cure" (Sinclair or people closely connected with him). While this sort of preliminary work does raise some hope that the method might prove helpful, most objective scientific observers feel it is very premature to be promoting this method as a fully established method of treatment, much less a "cure." Many in the field believe that Sinclair and his promoters are over-selling the results. I strongly suspect that this is the case.

As to abstinence, of course it is simply a method of dealing with the problems that arise for some people when they drink! Certainly, it's not a "cure" for the underlying problems that contribute to the inability to control consumption that some people have.

And as to AA... well, it's just one method of achieving abstinence. AA is certainly not promoted as a "cure," either. And most would agree that AA has discouragingly high failure rates, as measured by how many of its members remain permanently abstinent.

I would throw MWO into the mix... again, roughly speaking, it is sort of a hodge-podge of methods of helping people to achieve either permanent abstinence or permanent capacity to control their drinking. Not a "cure." So far as I know, there are no data about success rates for MWO...

[SpringerRider]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Evie.Lou;534225 wrote: I bought the book...Read half way thru...then put it in the trash...least anyone else would get hold of the copy, I bought. Sounded like shallow uninformed, ignorant advise...and kind of scary, to think that it is on book shelves, everywhere??? BEST SELLER (I hope not).
Some of what he said made my skin crawl ...Sorta reminds me of corner MADAM Zelda's doing "spiritual counseling' ...not a CLUE...NOT A CLUE !!!!

I believe you are demonstrating contempt prior to investigation. Why not suspend your conclusion until you are able to gatehr more data?

There are several of us here doing the Sinclair Method. I am one of them. The most advanced has only been on it 4 months and he states he has a significant reduction in consumption.

I am not new to recovery. I have been a counselor and have had bouts of long term abstinence of over 12 years. But we are continually discovering new things.

Let us let this thing play out. By late-spring, several of us will have crossed the four month threashhold and will be ready to report our findings. If we fail then so be it. If not, we will let you all know that also.

Maybe, just maybe, the world ain't flat!

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

SR, with respect.... you say that, in four months, several of you will be ready to "report your results," and I am wondering how we might interpret those results... let's say that 100% of the "several" will be reporting (along with the person you mentioned) "significant reductions in consumption." Is that what Eskapa calls a "cure"? Does this reduction in consumption mean the person is always able to control his/her consumption, and not exceeding 3 units on any given day? If not, then how do you define "cure"? Or, if so, how do we know that this change in behavior is attributable to the Sinclair method? Are there not multiple other reasons that might contribute to the hypothesized reductions in consumption? Among the other factors might be: Group support, expectations/suggestion, determination to succeed, being sick and tired of getting trashed.... there are others, of course, as well...

After all, many people who use various components of the MWO program report "significant reductions in consumption" (some, but not all, of whom are still occasionally drinking too much, or way too much) after 4 months, without using the Sinclair Method. And some report that they are totally abstinent. Are they "cured"? Will your little group have a better outcome than a similar group of typical MWO online participants? How would you know the answer to that question? How are we measuring the outcomes, in this little experiment?

Don't get me wrong. I hope that each and every one of you finds relief from your alcohol problems, one way or another. I have no vested interest in any particular method of "treatment" for alcohol dependence. But I do have a strong commitment to science, and the anecdotal reports that your group here on MWO will be reporting cannot be considered of much scientific value... certainly, it will be personally very significant to each of you, one way or another... but not of scientific value.

And, sure enough, the world ain't flat! Not sure why you threw that in there...

[Evie.Lou]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

I actually have found benefits from the drug naltrexone and used several times the last time it was back in Oct. to help me put a quick end to my last binge. I really think that this drug has had an important place in my recovery process. It is the word CURE that turns me off. I am from an Alcoholic family and was raised with ala-teen being weekly event in our house, so have been around alcoholics all my life. I have never seen any Alcoholic that has become a social drinker, as much as I wish that it could be. I had 17 yrs. sober and it only took a few weeks, once I started drinking again, to be right back where I started from (an out of control DRUNK). I wish you well and I hope it works for you !!! I would be thrilled to be wrong about this !!! TIME WILL TELL.

[Solice]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Hi Evie, How long you been AF now??
I've been in and out dozens of time, steps, inventories, general service, sponsorship, lead meetings, started new meetings, stress, life, just one, right back.....

What the Sinclair Method promises, or proposes, is that by followoing this process, the compulsion, desire, cravings, ie learned association, will be removed. They clearly say if one were to go through the process and then drink without naltrexone, one would be addicted again in short order, weeks.

What got me interested is yea, I could go a day, a week here and there, even months and more than a year but the cravings/desire/compulsion never left.. I want that GONE. I want to be one who's brain is such that I can truely 'take it or leave it' so to speak, not feel like I'm missing out. This process is intended to make us 'unlearn' the connection between alcohol and euphoria, relief, escape, etc... Something that's been ingrained in me since I was a teen. Just like Pavlov's dog's unlearned the bell meant food..

Funny, when I was 14 my school counselor actually suggested I go to ala-teen for my drinking.. Dumb-arse, AA is what I 'needed'. I actualy was sober from 18-25, was a blackbelt, won competitions, then I got married, marred, whatever.. nasty c*nt wife, miseable home life, bitter divorce

Was a 'peer' addition counselor in college, you name it, I had/have the malady. The malady being that I associate alcohol with relief... Ok guys, let'er rip... I'm ready.....

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Solice, hi. I hope it does not seem that I am "ripping into" anybody. I think the theory behind this "Sinclair Method" is interesting, and worth testing. I am a psychologist and I understand what the guy is proposing, but I also think that he is underestimating the complexity of multiple motivational systems that impact human behavior, especially deeply ingrained behavior around alcohol, and that he disregards what might very well turn out to be genetically determined biochemical/structural brain differences that (along with simple learning models) significantly contribute to behavioral dyscontrol over alcohol consumption...

In other words, I doubt that it is possible for most of us to use this method to, essentially, UN-learn a deeply entrenched behavioral pattern that very well may be structurally or biochemically determined (at least in part). My doubts are not based on any allegiance to other methods, but based on my academic and professional study of human behavior, mind/brain/behavior relationships, and alcohol/drug dependency...

And, like Evie, I object to the sensationalist, overblown use of the term "cure" in the book title. It is premature, at best, and not in keeping with a scientific mind-set.

The causal questions in "treatment" of behavioral and emotional problems are ALWAYS difficult to determine. Some of us "get better," doing some things, and not others... and some do not get better, doing the same stuff that seems to help many others.... Those who "get better" using a particular combination of interventions may or may not accurately attribute "success" to one or more of the interventions.... but it might be something else, altogether... That's what control groups, and replication, are all about, in the world of science.

All that being said: I do hope you find relief from your malady, one way or another.

[lushy]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

I find it interesting that you are on a website that already has a program in place and yet you want to sit and debate the Sinclair Method. I think it is one thing to discuss the process of the method but when threads are started saying you can only "strictly" talk about this method and nothing else, then I think it is time for you to start your own blog or website.

Just my .02 cents.

[aurora borialis]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Well, there seems to be alot of well educated intelligent people debating the book and that is great. I too am a graduate in biology with a major in genetics and molecular cell biology. I recently took a class involving knowledge of the brain. One of the things that came up was the newly found ideas on the elasticity of the brain and it's abilities to grow new receptors. This makes me wonder about the blockage of the opiod receptors. In theory it works but what if the brain simply grows new ones? For alcohol? I have several questions of my own regarding the book but this is simply something I am trying. For me results have been good thus far. When I drink, I drink much less and I desire less. I also have much less negative consequences in my life as a result. For me it is too each their own and good luck.

[nancy]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

I am not a scientist, but the strategy sounded plausible enough to me. Naltrexone is often used in addiction so it's not coming out of left field.

As for the promise of cure, well I think that is a marketing spin. This website makes a lot of marketing promises too yet still has value. And as fo my idol-- Alan Carr-- his Easy Way To Stop Alcohol-- what a misnomer, not easy at all. But his book is so worthwhile to read!

The drawbacks of naltrexone from what I read are, first of all it blocks all pleasure receptors. It's hard to imagine how long-term or daily use would work. You have to watch out for doing behaviors that are pleasurable and want to continue while you are on it.

Second, I think it would interfere with emergency treatment, again, because it blocks all opioid receptors. Seems like it would be better to have something selective. This is overkill. Imagine you get in an accident and need drugs! That would scare me.

Another, perhaps bigger problem is that you don't get the buzz so you drink less, and there is a temptation to not take it for a day or two in order to experience that buzz again. One of the people who came to this website a while ago had this problem. She started to promise herself one night a week off of it, something like that.

I also wonder if this could turn people into dry drunks or if they would resort to stopping taking it or get addicted to something else. You know, it's not doing anything about the psychological causes for drinking. You remove the high but not the desperate urges for release. But I could see huge value for those whose biggest problem is the social aspect of not drinking, the explaining why you can't have one, the feeling of being left out. I think that is significant and can be hard to overcome. The constant saying no to any drop of alcohol is, for me, really hard to bear. This option takes care of that.

I was really interested in it all for a while and still think it is a good option for some.

[aurora borialis]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Hey Nancy, You have made some excellent points. I'm no scientist either. The scientists laugh at me. Just a student who has a degree and has taken Waaay too many courses. I agree about alot of the psychological issues. It is such a diverse thing. Doing Nal doesn't chage the emotions. Though in my case I have always been a drinker that drank to excess aprox 10 occasions a month so I take my pill one hour before I am going to drink. The other good activities such as exersizing etc. are done with no medication. I did have a medical procedure recently involving a ct scan of my brain. I told them about the naltrexone and they said it wouldn't affect that but again, it didn't involve pain meds so I don't know. I am just trying it and it seems to be working well for me. I have had side effects though. .

[Evie.Lou]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Solice;534712 wrote: Hi Evie, How long you been AF now??
I've been in and out dozens of time, steps, inventories, general service, sponsorship, lead meetings, started new meetings, stress, life, just one, right back.....

What the Sinclair Method promises, or proposes, is that by followoing this process, the compulsion, desire, cravings, ie learned association, will be removed. They clearly say if one were to go through the process and then drink without naltrexone, one would be addicted again in short order, weeks.

What got me interested is yea, I could go a day, a week here and there, even months and more than a year but the cravings/desire/compulsion never left.. I want that GONE. I want to be one who's brain is such that I can truly 'take it or leave it' so to speak, not feel like I'm missing out. This process is intended to make us 'unlearn' the connection between alcohol and euphoria, relief, escape, etc... Something that's been ingrained in me since I was a teen. Just like Pavlov's dog's unlearned the bell meant food..

Funny, when I was 14 my school counselor actually suggested I go to ala-teen for my drinking.. Dumb-arse, AA is what I 'needed'. I actualy was sober from 18-25, was a blackbelt, won competitions, then I got married, marred, whatever.. nasty c*nt wife, miseable home life, bitter divorce

Was a 'peer' addition counselor in college, you name it, I had/have the malady. The malady being that I associate alcohol with relief... Ok guys, let'er rip... I'm ready.....

I joined MWO in Dec.07 but finally started seriously following the program May 08. Since then I have had 3 slips, all were short lived (days instead of weeks or months).I think Nal helped me not want to drink in just a few days but liver pain started happening in less than 1 week on it (I wouldn't dare take it long term, due to liver problems).
As long as I follow the MWO program of Sups, exercise and Cd's I can live happily in remission. To think that I am "CURED" in anyway could be very dangerous. In my case I believe that Alcoholism is in my very DNA and unless that was modified,I believe that I was born Alcoholic and I will die Alcoholic, in remission.