Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

[rv9]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Since the experience of drinking is no longer pleasurable when one is using Naltrexone (although it is certainly intoxicating), I am wondering about people who decide they want to drink AND enjoy it again? That is what reminds me of the compliance problem with Antabuse, i.e., just the plain old desire for the (probably very distorted) memories of enjoyable experiences, drinking alcohol with friends, or whatever.

AWIP -

That's the thing. Drinking is still enjoyable, at least superficially. The naltrexone seems to be operating at a level just on the edge of what you can detect. Drinking feels "different" but isn't completely unenjoyable. It's hard to a put a finger on it.

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

rv9;540266 wrote: AWIP -

That's the thing. Drinking is still enjoyable, at least superficially. The naltrexone seems to be operating at a level just on the edge of what you can detect. Drinking feels "different" but isn't completely unenjoyable. It's hard to a put a finger on it.

Wow. Interesting! Well I certainly am not going to try it, I am a confirmed AF person, but I find the whole thing fascinating. Wishing you well!

[SpringerRider]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

A Work in Progress;540231 wrote: Since the experience of drinking is no longer pleasurable when one is using Naltrexone (although it is certainly intoxicating), I am wondering about people who decide they want to drink AND enjoy it again?

Au contraire!
I experience the entire effects of alcohol. I feel the warm glow, the loosening up, the social lubrication and everything else my non-alcohol wife enjoys. And she chooses to drink on occasion. The word “pleasure” is a misnomer here. Naltrexone does not dimmish pleasure. The meachanism that causes craving takes place below the radar screen, probably in the unconscious. While the opioid receptors go incomplete, there is a deep inner sense of “incompleteness” that is translated to a craving. Since this phenomenom takes place in the brain, I am quite sure there are no direct sensations involved. The brain houses no nerve endings.

Let me move this to another phenomenom, compulsive gambling, where Naltrexone also works. I play poker on occasion but have no trouble walking away from the table up or down. I have a friend that is a compulsive gambler and he cannot. Even talking about gambling makes his eyes glassy and his resperation increase. He is an addict.

Now who truly finds pleasure in gambling? My friend or myself.

Tonight I will be going to a Japanese Habachi resturant. I will drink hot Saki. I have taken my Nal. I will drink to the state I enjoy, without restraint. The key is what state will I find enjoyable?

[aurora borialis]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Totally jealous SR. I love Japanese restaraunts and sake!!! I agree, after all my time doing the method I still feel pleasure in the drinking but I am just done with it much sooner.

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

SR, like I said to rv9... very interesting stuff. Hard to understand (it's an opioid blocker, but it doesn't alter the pleasure of the experience?)... but I'm glad it's working for you!

[rv9]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

A Work in Progress;540278 wrote: SR, like I said to rv9... very interesting stuff. Hard to understand (it's an opioid blocker, but it doesn't alter the pleasure of the experience?)... but I'm glad it's working for you!

It alters it for sure, but doesn't eliminate it. The best analogy I can think of is a dish that while very tasty, is missing a flavor that it usually contains - like spaghetti sauce with no garlic in it. It's good and fills you up, but something is missing.

[aurora borialis]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

LOL What a great analogy RV9!

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

rv9;540288 wrote: It alters it for sure, but doesn't eliminate it. The best anology I can thing of is a dish that while very tasty, is missing a flavor that it usually contains - like spaghetti sauce with no garlic in it. It's good and fills you up, but something is missing.

Fascinating. You know, it reminds me just a bit of the experiments run some time back, in which people were given fake alcohol to drink, placed in a bar or pub-like setting, given plenty to drink, and they began to behave and (reportedly) feel as if they were drinking alcohol... the way that the human brain processes and registers various experiences, even something seemingly as simple as drinking alcohol (or believing that one is drinking alcohol) is amazingly complex... This is part of the trouble with rodent studies... with humans, but not with rodents, cognitive and emotional factors, such as expectations, memories, etc., play such a large role.

[aurora borialis]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Well I had a friend over the other day and he is a major drinker. We were watching a movie and I said hey do want some champagne? I have some. It was non-alcoholic champagne. I only have it around sometimes when I feel like a bubbly fun drink. Anyway I did not tell him it was non alcoholic and you should have seen his behaviour and reaction. I wasn't trying to be crafty or anything I just wanted to see his reaction. Well he totally behaved in a way that would be in synch with an alcoholic beverage. We were celebrating the purchase of a new flat screen tv. I found his behaviour Interesting to say the least.

[SpringerRider]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

potato;540315 wrote: Well I had a friend over the other day and he is a major drinker. We were watching a movie and I said hey do want some champagne? I have some. It was non-alcoholic champagne. I only have it around sometimes when I feel like a bubbly fun drink. Anyway I did not tell him it was non alcoholic and you should have seen his behaviour and reaction. I wasn't trying to be crafty or anything I just wanted to see his reaction. Well he totally behaved in a way that would be in synch with an alcoholic beverage. We were celebrating the purchase of a new flat screen tv. I found his behaviour Interesting to say the least.

I think flat screen TV's do that to a lot of us.:H

[SpringerRider]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

The Study I would like to see but don't expect to would be a triple blind study of Naltrexone use. TRhe study would require a large sampling population of half self-identified problem drinkers and half non-problem drinkers, properly filtered and controlled for those with Wernicke’s and Korsakoff's syndromes and other debilitating maladies.

None of the participants would know they were receiving Naltrexone. They would be instructed that they were being giving some health enhancing drug to counter the damaging effects from drinking or some other cover story. Half would be given Naltrexone and half would be placebo. Neither the participants or test administrators would know who received which until the completion of the study. Nor would the testers be told who were problem drinkers.

The participants would be instructed to take this pill one hour prior to drinking. The population would need to be large enough to permit marginalizing outlyers due to non-compliance.

The outcome would be very telling. Even the percent of those failing to comply would be meaningful.

Did those using Naltrexone decrease their drinking? How had their usage changed, if any.
Did non-problem drinkers experience a change in their drinking experience?
Did those failing to comply report a reason? Did they perceive that the pill was somehow interfering with the joy of drinking.

I would encourage all participants to maintain a diary and answer a few questions daily, preferably online so testers can insure the information is recent and relevant.

I believe such a study could put any remaining questions about Naltrexone to rest.

[SpringerRider]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

rv9;540288 wrote: It alters it for sure, but doesn't eliminate it. The best analogy I can think of is a dish that while very tasty, is missing a flavor that it usually contains - like spaghetti sauce with no garlic in it. It's good and fills you up, but something is missing.

See, I am not seeing this. I just got back from our Hibachi steak dinner. We had hot saki. I got a mild buzz after only a half bottle.

I did mention to the wife that I thought the Naltrexone may have lessened the "oral-gasm" that I normally would get when eating such delicious food. I believe Sinclair warned of that but I am not concerned. Yet I feel totally satisfied with the alcohol. As a matter of fact, I am delighted that drinking didn't become the center point of my meal. It would have a month ago.

Maybe my expectations are different than yours.

[A Work in Progress]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

I think that would be a nice study, SR. Not sure it would ever get past a review board in the USA, but it's a good start on a good design. But as for me, the questions remaining are not so much about whether Naltrexone, taken consistently before drinking, reduces the amount consumed. That makes sense to me, and apparently the literature is converging on the conclusion that it does, or can, work that way.

My own questions have to do with long-term efficacy. Will people remain compliant with this regimen, long term? And, if so, will the drug continue to work in the same way that it seems to be working, at least for many, in the short-term? What are the numbers looking like in Finland (it is Finland, isn't it?), for the long-term follow-up data (I think I read that Dr. Sinclair is working on tracking these data)? Have you heard anything about that?

[houtx770]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

Hello - I thought this forum had moved...and I know it is in transition... but sooooooooo relieved to find all these postings. I cannot login to the new site. No matter what user name or email address I give I am not accepted. HAve sent 3 mssgs per the link to the "admin board" and have not heard back...hope I can get some advice what to do next over there...kinda feeling like the fish out of water...until I posted here again and lo and behold several of you are still going strong. YAAAYYY!!!

May I intervene to give you my updates? First of all, Lena, I wish you lived nearby so we could go play golf together. I am not very good (2 1/2 yrs into the game - takes me a few strokes to get to the flag - gack!!) but want so badly to find a galpal to play with...we can chat about this somewhere else later perhaps - :-) But also worried a little my endorphs from golf/exercise/"other" LOL - might be subject to some extinction as I go thru this too - perhaps...but vowing to go thru the motions anyway!!

Today I went to an addiction psychiatrist and felt as if I were on an assembly line almost. He sat in front of his computer and typed in all my stuff as we chatted. In the end, he wrote me an Rx for Nal and Champral.(BTW, all my bloodwork came back normal, incl. LFT - very relieved) He recm'd I go completely abstinent for the best result (no surprise), and gave me a couple of free/AA-type support groups to attend. Wants to see me in "a couple of weeks" (it'll be a month - when I need the refill) and it was basically one of the more impersonal experiences I have ever had w/ a psyche consultant. "Wham Bam" basically...but I was down widdat...I just had never been w/ a doc who typed the whole time & didn't probe very deeply into who I really am LOL... But then - I was pretty matter-of-fact - not your dippy: ya know like ok I'm like sortof hooked on ok like whiiiiinnnnnuh??

Sheesh - I mean, I went in saying I was gung-ho on the treatment of Al addiction using naltrexone w/ the Sinc. Method...thinking, b/c of our phone calls he was too...he took a history, we chatted about my life. Very no big deal. As he went into his yaddayadda on "abstinence to cure physiological addiction" BS I was thinking, this guy is just collecting the fees - he could not care less & saying the usual stuff...just like many of you have said! 45 minutes later, I was done, got the RXs for Nal & Champral (what is that going to do for me, folks??).. and I was a happy camper.

I got them filled, took 25mgs & a couple of Champral - what the hey...went & got my hair hilited and could hardly keep my eyes open the whole time!! Just like you've all said. Whoa. HOWEVER - I could hardly WAIT to get home and have my wine, which I am enjoying now...

But again, I am very frustrated I cannot login to the new site. Have sent my personal email addresses in emails I have sent to the Admins there...hope prob resolved soon. At any rate - I am on it, folks! Sooooooooooo grooved. :-)

[bloggy]

Eskapa's Book, The Cure for Alcoholism

A Work in Progress;540184 wrote:

I think it's fair to say that so far the peer-reviewed research is looks promising. It's WAY premature to say that "the research has already been done," of course. Here's what I am wondering about: first, how serious is the potential problem with liver toxicity (and other side effects)? I have read the literature on this, and there are no settled conclusions, as yet. Second, is this going to end up being a lot like Antabuse? I.e., will people do quite nicely as long as they keep taking their Naltrexone... but then crash and burn when/if they decide they'd like to really start drinking again? That, I suppose, will be the "real test" of the "extinction" theory. Time will tell.

WIP, In my own case, and I suspect in everyone else's here, the likelihood of crashing and burning again is minimal because we do not want to be where we are- we hate it but just cannot stop- no other method I have heard of has really resonated with me and I have been searching for the last 12 years.

If I am able to return to my pre-addiction days (many many moons ago) I don't think I will forget in a hurry the scary place I have been in, and there is no way I will want to go back- and if that means carrying a few small pills with me at all times and taking one if I feel l may drink, that is what I will do.