Shas's Baclofen Thread

[Cinders]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

Shas,

I hope you get better soon.

It is unfortunate you got sick just as you were starting on this journey, but the virus will pass and you will start feeling a whole lot better without the drink.

Cindi

[christyacc]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

Good for you for passing up the wine! I hope you feel better soon.

[Going Strong]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

Question

Morning all,

Didn't drink last night and was home alone normally a good opportunity to drink myself stupid.

Didn't even think about it and there was a bottle of wine in the fridge, bottle of vodka on the bench and a bottle of scotch in the cupboard.

I only thought about this when I woke up.

Now I have a question as well.

I slept in today and took my 8am dose at 10am. do I try and fit all the doses in the normal time till like 10pm as I don't want to have to sit up till later to take it?

Will the dosage I am taking which has been in the last 2 days of 8am 40mg, 1pm 30mg, 5pm 40mg and 10pm 30mg be Ok to fit into a shorter time span or am I being too anal about all of this LOL?

Everybody else have a safe & sober weekend!

P.S. On a other note my post will show I am posting at 10.49am or there abouts so do you see my post as the time in your timezone or mine? Always wanted to know that.

[Bill.P.]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

Hi Shas, got your PM and reading your post.
Sounds like you have a virus of some sort. That's definitely going around Down Under, my wife just got over hers this week and everyone at her work got sick in the last 2 weeks, 2 of them tested positive for the swine flu. Bugs like that arent as easily destroyed in colder weather, hence the cold and flu season down in Australia going on.

As far as the medication dosage. If you miss a dose, its best just to skip it and not double up generally. The half life of baclofen is 2-4 hours in the system which is why you should dose so often, missing a dose is really not that big of a deal. If you want to rule out it being the balcofen you could easily cut your current dose in half or to a 1/3 to see if you feel better. Btw, I forgot my baclofen before I went to work and so didnt take it until 4 pm and I took 50mg no probs.
Often times people who take betablockers for cardiovascular reasons get a puny feeling which is often insidious. Kind of creeps up on you.
So you could try to cut in half the dose so that just to see if you are overloaded and if you feel better then you have to weigh whether or not you want to keep your dose a bit lower to see how you feel versus alcohol intake and the badness that causes

As others have said, I would see how you do at your current dose for a couple of weeks before proceeding to go any higher. Work on strategies you can employ and have in place to also work on you being able to say 'no' if a craving does hit you out of the blue.
That's the psychological behavior control that needs to be modified so you make it a bit harder for you to take or reach for a glass.

I went to Camp Runamucka a couple of times (inpatient) and they had workbooks that we had to work through while in treatment. Of course, I hated all of that stuff at the time, but I think now they are useful. I tried to google an alcohol recovery workbook though and ways to prepare your mind to help change your decisionmaking and outcomes. But didnt find any good ones, just this: Client recovery workbook - Google Books

But I ran across a neat quote finding that: "If you win at Sobriety, you win big, if you lose, you lose everything"
Boy aint that the truth!

So to recap, I think you should chaulk your stuff up to the virus that swept across Oz this month seeing as how your hubby has it. But you can safely cut your dosages to half or a bit less to see how you go then but what may happen while you are doing your dose experiment that you recover from the virus and feel better and wrongly attribute it to the dosage fiddling. Also, 160mg is higher than your minimal predicted dosing necessary so I would hold at that dose for a period of time. Or not, you have the personality like mine that is all or nothing. I cant drink one drink, eat one slice of pizza or eat one gummi bear. If I take the first one, then I am going to go until its gone. But I know I am bigger than you are and my dose was not that high as you are now. Just wasnt necessary for me. Again, everyone will have their own dose,s ome high, some low

Oh garsh, I am melting into the bed. I took 50mg of diphenhydramine (restavit) a half hour ago and it just hit me like freight train so I'll reply to your pm tomorow lol.
Btw, yup, wife doing great, she flies out of Sydney on Aug 1st, lands here Aug 1st and she resigned yesterday and gave 30day notice. So yup, she is very very happy I quit drinking, I would be on my way to divorce for sure if it wasnt for baclofen.

Also, I have your post at 1053 pm. So I know that is not correct as its 4pm in Sydney where my wife is right now and you are jjust up the road. (its 11pm friday night in the USA Pacific). I think you can go to your profile and fiddle with your default timezone but I think people will see your posts in through the software prism of their own timezone setting.

Good luck doll and congratulations on your success! You are seem so much stronger, positive (even with the family stress) and happy than the first PMs we exchanged. Its a delight to see you and read you saying "nuh, dont feel like it". Well comparing you now to then, its a huge change. Actually all of the early adopters seem to be doign great in their threads.
Continued success

[Going Strong]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

Thanks Bill for the info will post how I go.

And also your encouagement and support, it is appreciated..

Am really happy for you about your wife coming over.

Us women are suckers for a love story!

It is 1.31am here as I was minding my grandchildren and little Skye has had a bad night.

Hubby took me out for a quick meal tonight just so we could have abit of us time.

We went to a pub and had a really nice meal and we both drank soda water.

No thoughts of drinking whats so ever.

Have felt a little better today, not as dizzy so thats good.

Hope everybody is having a sober and happy weekend or whats left of it!

[Going Strong]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

Hi Everybody,

Well the stresses have escalated to a dangerous level over the weekend.

But I have not had 1 drink or even thought about drinking, even the head thoughts are not there any more.

I have gone down to 30mg x 4 every 4 hours.

I was on a high dose but as Bill.P says bac only lasts in your system between 2-4 hours so I was taking it at time too far apart.

Even on this lower dose I am OK.

So to answer your question.

Yes I think I have reached my switch. ointup:

But if I start having thoughts of a drink I will take that extra one to see if that works and if not I will go up my dose of bac.

On a good note I am back at work but still feeling fragile.

You should see my desk it's like a bomb hit it!

So won't be on this site much today but hopefully will get time to catch up tonight.

All you take care.

ps where is Beaches, are you going ok little darlin?

[Bill.P.]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

Hi Shas, well that's wonderful to hear you have gotten to that point where the thoughts arent even there. That was pretty amazing when I came to that realization so I know how that must feel. Too bad you are going through the rough stuff around you but when that goes away you will be in a great stretch by that point.

I think your dosing of 30 qid is spot on for right now. And as a side not to clarify. What I was referring to is a bit confusing. The time the medication is excreted is measure in terms of what is called half-lives. Meaning the amount of time for the medication to drop in your system by half. The half life of baclofen depending upon the person is 2-4 hours, probably closer to 3-4 hours.

That means if you take 30mg of baclofen, approximately 4 hours later you have 15mg in your system. Thats not exactly the way it works as not all of it absorbed and also less is absorbed at higher dose than lower dose. Mean 40mg does not correlate to 4 times the rise in blood serum levels as 10mg. But its always good to try and keep as steady as possible the amount in your system and 4 times daily is appropriate but one could get by with 3 dosages or to limit drowsiness more dosages as needed.

Now that we got that out of the way lol. I am so very happy for you to get to this point! BTW, how's the warfarin and pt-inr clotting been affected? I am curious as we discussed that hurdle before you began and I never did flush out a good answer to that but would like to know for my website in regards to coumadin interactions

[Zman]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

Dear All,

Reading this thread, and other threads on this forum have given me hope that I never, ever have had before in my life regarding my addiction. I realized I was addicted at a pretty young age...I guess i was about 24-25. I am now in my early 30s and drink alot, as the only source of contentment and pseudo-happiness appears to be the bottle (or bottles).

I am so excited to try Bac. But i have a few questions.

All my friends drink, and some drink pretty heavily. But none drink like me. Meaning, we could all get wasted and pass out, but the only guy who wants a drink the next morning is me. Also, my friends drink a lot but they all seem to be able to stop before they are blacked-out. I cant. I always black out unless my wife forces me to leave. Will Bac allow me to be like them? I mean, can I enjoy a few drinks and then just stop drinking when i know ive had enough? Or must i be completely AF?

Also, i suffer from horrible insomnia. I get in bed by 12 and will be awake till 4-5 and then wake up for work exhausted (even if i didnt drink the night before). In fact, the only time i am not exhausted is when I am drinking. It gives energy. I have read differing opinions on Bac's affect on sleep. Some say you sleep great and others say it keeps them awake. Is anyone out there an insomniac who sometimes just wants to drink so they can get some sleep, and does Bac help with this?

Thanks all of you, Bill P. and the rest. Any advice any of you have to give would be very appreciated.

[Bill.P.]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

HI zman and welcome to the baclofen revolution!

You have several questions so Ill go down the list.
Can you drink normally or small amounts? Possibly, although I do not have experience with attempting that but I read a study by William Bucknam regarding that very question. Here is the body of that case study:Mr. A is a 59-year-old married successful businessman who
frequently presides over national conventions and speaks
before hundreds of people. He enjoys a stable home life,
does not smoke, has no other chronic medical illnesses, and
despite having a beneficial ongoing
relationship with both a psychologist and a psychiatrist for
the management of depression and anxiety. He had been given
a diagnosis of major depressive disorder. His symptoms had
responded to paroxetine over the previous 2–3 years. Prior to
taking paroxetine he had had trials of fluoxetine, citalopram,
and sertraline which he considered to have been tainted by
his heavier alcohol consumption at the time. He spontaneously
identified himself as an alcoholic and presented a strong family
history of the same. He presented with a strong distaste for
AA meetings, which he had tried, and refused to consider
returning. He was not interested in a recommendation for outpatient
chemical dependency programming. In counseling sessions
he was advised to pursue abstinence from alcohol.
His ardent desire, however, was to be able to control his
drinking so as to not have it continue, in its unpredictable fashion,
to embarrass and/or episodically incapacitate him in his
professional endeavors. Toward that end, he had already completed
the Drinkwise program offered through the University
of Michigan. This programs utilizes CBT techniques to assist
those with an alcohol abuse diagnosis to be able to drink in a
controlled fashion, if they so choose. It did not work for him,
which appropriately led him to his own conclusion that he
had alcohol dependence rather than alcohol abuse.
Through his other psychiatrist he had already taken oral naltrexone.
A dosage of 100 mg/day had initially been necessary
before he noticed any attenuation of his alcohol cravings. This
was short-lived, however, and by the time he presented to me
he was taking 150 mg/day with no apparent benefit. He was
still consuming an average of 35 drinks distributed over a
week and up to 12 drinks per occasion. He remained concerned
about the potential damage such drinking might do to
his health, professional and home life. I recommended he continue
naltrexone at 150 mg/day and added acamprosate 2 g/
day. After 1 month, that did not reduce his craving or drinking
so I offered a trial of topiramate in its place. Topiramate, similarly,
offered no benefit and was associated with word-finding
difficulties, a side-effect he could not abide.
At this juncture, September 2005, a trial of baclofen was
agreed upon. Scales to evaluate craving and laboratory
parameters were not used. Over the first month he gradually
increased his dosage to 100 mg/day, taken on a t.i.d schedule,
and reported a completely satisfactory response. He felt that
drinking was now ‘‘an alien world’’ to him. On occasion, when
stressed, he increased his dosage to 140 mg/day. He experienced
only mild relaxation, not sedation, as a side-effect.
This benefit did not abate, as had been his experience with naltrexone,
and he continued to report baclofen as ‘‘my miracle
drug.’’ If he chose to drink his consumption was never more
than 12 per week, or 3 per occasion, and his sense of euphoria
from that was dulled. With the guidance of his other psychiatrist
he discontinued the paroxetine, experienced return of
depression and anxiety, had a brief unsuccessful trial on
effexor XR 75 mg, and returned to paroxetine.
DISCUSSION
Having worked with chemically dependent individuals struggling
for recovery for over 20 years, I am a supporter of AA
and Narcotics Anonymous (NA) and believe connection with
those organizations to be the most likely route toward quality
recovery. With or without such a connection, however, I have
repeatedly been faced with the patient who, despite his or her
apparent best efforts, has not been successful at resisting the
impulse to relapse, even when I believe I have successfully
treated psychiatric comorbidity. I have experienced such
patients benefiting from either oral naltrexone, acamprosate,
or the combination of both. I make disulfiram available to
patients whom I believe it will help, but do not rely upon it
to reduce the phenomenon of craving. I have yet to treat anyone
with injectable naltrexone.
Mr. A is an individual whom I believe represents a very
large number of patients who do not experience a satisfactory
anti-craving response to either the current FDA-approved
medications for alcohol dependence or to topirimate. My
report is that he has experienced a satisfactory response to
high-dose baclofen that has been sustained over ten months
without significant side-effect. Tolerance has not developed,
whereas it had with oral naltrexone. Tolerance to baclofen
has uncommonly been reported only after years of intrathecal
use for severe spasticity (Nielsen et al., 2002). In contrast with
Dr. Ameisen’s experience, use of a selective serotonin reuptake
inhibitor (SSRI; paroxetine) did appear to be necessary
as baclofen by itself did not satisfactorily reduce Mr. A’s anxiety
or depression.
Being a case study, this report is obviously limited. Placebo
response is a possibility. If that is the case, however, there is
no apparent explanation for why it did not appear in trials of
either naltrexone or acamprosate, alone or in combination, or
with topirimate. Given the nearly four decades of use of
high-dose baclofen for the long-term comfort care of patients
with muscular spasticity from various neurological conditions
(spinal injuries, multiple sclerosis), and the absence of report
of serious or irreversible adverse effect, baclofen may be a
safe, effective and well-tolerated adjunct to our treatment
efforts with this population. Hypotension, changes in glucose
control in diabetics, sedation and changes in seizure control
are potential side-effects. Randomized trials of high-dose
baclofen should be conducted to test elimination of alcohol
craving and its potential consequences.
Acknowledgement—I am grateful to Dr. Ameisen for his support and the sharing
of his experience.

Now my $.02, I may disagree with the wisdom of trying to modify your drinking as it is shown to not work over time "often a mirage" was the Harvard researcher who studied long term people who attempt to modify there drinking. Baclofen is interesting as it may allow that to occur given the case study I listed above. I would advise against it though and given your brief history you've state, you should try living without alcohol for an extended period of time to see how it actually is without craving. You will probably find you enjoy alcohol cravings-free more than you can possibly even imagine right now. So cross that bridge once you get to it after you have attained a happy amount of experience without cravings.

Secondly, In regards to the insomnia. Yes I have terrible insomnia before Id drink myself to sleep. When I didnt drink which was rare, Id have racing thinking that kept me awake, replaying daily events and scenarios til the wee hours.
At first, I slept like a baby as many reported, actually the first several days I slept like a rock. But later I regained my insomnia.
What I found that diphenhydramine the active ingredient in Nytol or Sominex and most OTC sleep aids potentiates wonderfully with baclofen. Meaning, it never worked before for me, then with baclofen it is quite pleasant to actually be able to control the time I want to sleep allowing me to wake up and workout without being exhausted.
So taking baclofen just to be able to beat my insomnia would be a reason for me. Along with its dramatic reduction in anxiety, and my complete cessation of alcohol use virtually effortless.

Your first step would be to determined what you want out of baclofen use, then you must obtain it. By far the cheapest way to attain it is through a prescription. I am sure as you read most have been using one particular online pharmacy that is loads cheaper than anything else.
Then you have to decide on your titration method and work your way up and keep a log of your cravings and dosages.
So far all of the people I have talked to that have dosed high enough have gotten great results and I do believe as more research is completed on this new treatment approach that in ten years it will become the "gold standard" of treatment for alcohol abuse and addiction

[Going Strong]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

Afternoon Everybody,

Well my inr came back high at 3.2 but not too high. I will take 4mg tonight and then resume 4.5mg of warfron tomorrow.

I am not sure if it's the bac or that I have no appetite and food affects warfrin.

Anyway she wasn't too stressed about it and I will go back in a week.

Yesterday I took 30mg x 4 and felt really good but had alot of work to do before end of financial year so didn't get home till 8pm.

Get home and no one has cooked dinner so felt a slight stress so popped 10mg.

Then just got on with my night.

What I am finding is that I am speaking up for myself in an extremely stressful situation where I would normally just concede.

I don't know how to explain it but I just feel stronger.

All of this is just amazing for me......simply amazing!

Take Care

Zman, Welcome and make sure you read all the threads on Baclofen.

I was a serious hardcore drunk and really thought I was going to die from it.

Not anymore

[Cinders]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

Shas,

I am at 40 mg 3 x day.

It is amazing.

I am going to stay here for a while and see if it is truly the "magic number."

I am a hardcore drunk and I, too, thought I was going to die from it.

Not anymore.

Love,
Cindi

[Going Strong]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

Hey Cindi,
:l

[louise]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

So glad it is working for you! Thanks for the update.

[billyb]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

Zman, definitely read that full case report by W. Bucknam that Bill.P. posted. That case report was the first corroboration of Ameisen's method, and was one of the most important reasons why I started to take baclofen initially (it supported the idea that Ameisen wasn't just a quack - that someone else had observed the same thing).

Also, it is worth noting that Ameisen himself still has occasional drinks.

I now drink moderately on baclofen, but this is after I did about a month AF, like the way Zen suggested above. For me baclofen erased the physical need to drink, but there was a psychological habitual reflex to drink that still lingered. Doing a month AF was crucial for me to break that habit.

I see no problem at all with drinking in a *very* moderate way while on baclofen. As in, a single drink, possibly two, and for at most two or three days out of the week.

However, I would strongly caution against going out for drinking sessions with your buddies while on baclofen. While you won't feel the physical craving you once did (you certainly won't drink to the point of blacking if you are on baclofen), but you will definitely feel the social pressure, and you may well drink a lot more than you should. Considering that baclofen intensifies alcohol's buzz somewhat, this might be counterproductive.

If you feel comfortable limiting yourself to only one beer at the bar with your friends, then I'd say baclofen could work very well for you (but I would also strongly recommend a month or so AF before trying to drink again). But if you will be pressured into buying rounds or otherwise drinking way more than you should, then I'd say that you'd need to complement baclofen with a change in lifestyle as well.

[Zman]

Shas's Baclofen Thread

BillB,

I hear you. I think i want be AF for way longer than 1 month if i can. But eventually, i would like to be able to have a drink or two, or even 3 or 4, and not have the overwhelming need to have the 5th, or
6th or 19th hehe. If Bac can do that (basically turn me into a normal social drinker) I will write Amisien into my will hehe.