so bac may help to moderating

[nancy]

so bac may help to moderating

Why does the brain reward center think you need alcohol to live?

[Lusus Naturae]

so bac may help to moderating

Zman;674888 wrote: Bill, you mention that Bac takes away the euphoric effects of AL. If that is the way it works, isnt it very similar to Nal? Whats the difference between the way the two drugs get rid of cravings?

I don't have the depth of knowledge or expertise of Bill, but I'll offer what I remember of what I've read. Take it for what it's worth.

According to Sinclair, naltrexone blocks the receptors activated by endorphins. The idea is that drinking releases endorphins which, through the pleasurable and positive reward, cause the brain to become 'wired' to seek more alcohol. By blocking the reward while drinking, the feedback is eliminated, and the association of reward with alcohol becomes 'extinguished' over time. Note that this use of nal is very different than the accepted craving suppressing use of it. Using the Sinclair method, you have to drink while taking nal.

Baclofen binds to, and excites the GABAb receptors. Neurons excited by GABA are inhibitory: they inhibit the firing of other neurons. The neurons they inhibit are dopamine related, which is part of the brain's reward/pleasure system. By inhibiting the reward from alcohol (and apparently lots of other substances and behaviors), those sibstances and/or behaviors no longer have the overwhelmingly positive efffect, and lose their grip on you.

From what I've read of people's actual experinces in forums (this and others), nal can take from 3 months to 6 or more (the sinclair method site says up to 14 months to be craving free). Bac seems to take effect more quickly, with some seeing significant effects (myself included) very quickly.

With bac, apparently not drinking while taking it is more effective. With nal, you MUST drink in order for it to work.

The long term need for bac to keep craving suppressed seems to be unknown (as far as I can tell). With nal, you don't need to keep taking it after craving is suppressed, but must always take it before drinking.

[edit: one more thing] Another comparison, though this isn't what you asked for, is that baclofen can have severe consequenses if you stop taking it without decreasing dosage over time, where naltrexone can be stopped without any significant effects. Naltrexone, though, since it binds to and makes opioid receptors effectively useless, makes opioid related pain killers useless, which could be a problem if you find yourself unexpectedly (and perhaps unconcious) in a situation where opioid pain killers are necessary. Zman, I know I listed comparisons that aren't really related to your question, but once I started...

Hope that helps.

[Lusus Naturae]

so bac may help to moderating

nancy;674929 wrote: Why does the brain reward center think you need alcohol to live?

This may be completely off the wall, but here are my thoughts...

The neurons in the brain make associations based on the proximity or nearness of what you're experiencing, whether that's near in terms of different senses or perceptions, or near in time.

If you are in a pleasurable situation, the various sensations and perceptions are hard wired as a good thing, whether they reallly contributed to the pleasure or not. This is what 'Pavlov's dogs' showed: when a bell was rung just prior to feeding repeatedly, they would salivate when the bell was rung, whether food was present or not. On the flip side, if the stimuli is present without reward, it tends to reduce the association. With the dogs, if the bell was rung repeatedly without the food reward, the salivation would decrease.

If you eat something, and the body finds it good, that association is made, and your brain associates (as a very low level, way below and preceeding thought) that food, the taste, the appearence, where you found it, etc. with good. Those experiences will be associated with good. If you eat something and it makes you ill, your brain will associate that with bad. You'll tend to avoid anything associated with that experience. I've certainly experienced that. Whether food related or not, if I become ill after eating something, that something will not be something I'll be looking for for some time to come, whether the ill was caused by the food or not.

Alcohol, for some people, creates extreme pleasure, or feeds the wiring in such a way as to enhance the association of the consumption of alcohol (and everything associated with it) with pleasure (or good stuff). To the neurons in the brain, the strong association isn't evaluated as to whether it makes sense or not, it just works that way. Since the alcohol experience is so strongly associated with 'good stuff', that association could be even stronger than associations that do make sense, such as the relative 'goodness' of food. From that point of view, due to the stronger association, alcohol can have a greater hard wired effect in the brain than food, and again, from that point of view, the brain would be making the association of alcohol with good (or survival) very strongly. From that perspective, by the way the brain associates pleasureable with survival, alcohol would be tricking the brain into 'thinking' or at a very low level associating alcohol with survival.

I hope that makes some kind of sense...

[veritas]

so bac may help to moderating

:goodjob:Me1 great news about your evening.

I am really fascinated by this discussion. I have realised that I used running to control my drinking in the part. Running, the "runners high" floods the body with endophins and creates a sense of "well being". When I stopped running, the addiction took over.

I have met many people who have used running as a way to conquer an addiction to alchohol. When I ran and was in peak fitness, I definately had a different reaction to alcohol.

Again, from an evolutionary prespective, our brains are hard wired to avoid pain and seek pleasure. How else would sex have been so popular Most women would not have gone past one child:H Alcohol is just too good on both counts.