baclofen dilemma

[Anna B]

Hi-- I read the messages on this site all the time (although I rarely post) and can't seem to find a great solution a problem I've been having with baclofen that it seems like others have as well. Namely, the amount of baclofen I need to take on a daily basis in order to "flip the switch" and stay AF turns me into a zombie--granted, a relaxed, anxiety-free zombie that sleeps like a baby, but a zombie no less. I'm a professor so I work almost completely on my own schedule when I'm not teaching and this extreme somnolescence makes it nearly impossible for me to get research and writing done. I just have to zone out or take a nap instead of work. I do okay in meetings where I would embarrass myself if I fell asleep, but when I'm alone and need to really concentrate and think hard, I'm a mess.

For me, the zombie state only requires about 60 mg spaced throughout the day. I'm 5'8, 140 pounds and I've been titrating up on the bac for 7-8 weeks now (w/ a 1.5 week interruption for a vacation when I took it intermittently). And of course, the problem is that if I drop too much below this "magical" amount in order to wake up and get things done, I find myself craving wine, beer, you name it--and then eventually cave.

I can't drink coffee or take in too much caffeine in general because it makes me jittery and gives me terrible insomnia. For example, if I drink a Diet Coke at 4pm, I'll likely have a hard time falling asleep at midnight!

I know a few people have mentioned taking adrafinil to help with the baclofen sleepiness/zombie problem. I'm willing to order some from an online pharmacy abroad and try it but worry about taking it since it's not FDA approved in the US. Also, the info on this drug on the internet is pretty sparse. Apparently it's rough on your liver?

I'd love to hear any thoughts on adrafinil or related drugs like Provigil or Modafinil from anyone who's taken (or is taking) it. Also, I'd really appreciate any other advice or tips from those who've had this problem!! I really don't want to go off the bac--it's truly THE ONLY THING that's reliably worked for me in getting sober (almost magically and w/out effort, btw)!! But I also can't function with this kind of side effect.

:thanks:

[Cinders]

baclofen dilemma

Anna,

This is a tough nut to crack.

At 60 mg a day you are zombie like? And that is you off switch dose? (I am jealous, I am at 120 mg day!!)

How long have you been at 60 mg a day consistently?

I hate to throw another question at you but your answer might help others be able to help you better.

I am glad to hear it is working so well for you. I am sure someone can figure something out that will help. Hopefully Bill.P will chime in.

Cindi

[Anna B]

baclofen dilemma

Thanks for the reply, Cindi!

In response to your question, I haven't been at the 60 mg for too long (about 2 weeks) so it's possible that the zombie problem will resolve itself with a bit more time. Maybe I'm being impatient??? If others think so, please chime in.

I'm also wondering whether part of the reason why it's easy for me to stay AF on 60 mg is b/c I'm too tired to want to drink. Honestly I don't think that's it b/c I've certainly done my fair share of heavy drinking while I was tired to start off with! But you never know...

Btw, I'm also trying some other things that are caffeine alternatives--like Yerba Matte tea. I've drank it in the past when I've needed a caffeine-free boost and it seemed to help. For now, it kind of feels like I'd need 10 cups of it to get out of my zombie state! I'll keep trying it though and report back. If that's the case, I guess it's kind of a pain in the butt, but it's a lot better than ruining my life with alcohol.

--Anna

[j-vo]

baclofen dilemma

Anna,
I have no good info. for you but your post still helps me. I've just ordered bac. and waiting for it. Maybe it'll come within 10 days. I plan on titrating extremely slowly maybe even more slowly than was suggested. Maybe your system requires less than you think and you're a little over what you need. Just my thoughts.

[billyb]

baclofen dilemma

Hi Anna, as an academic taking baclofen, you might want to check out Clancy Martin's article in the London Review of Books. He's a professor too, and you might find some of what he says relevant.

As to provigil/modafinil (same thing), I take it on occasion, and it does help me focus a bit, and is really excellent with sleepiness. I found it particularly useful in the beginning when I was experiencing a lot of sleepiness. It was initially touted for having a really low abuse profile, but according to a recent report in JAMA it does have an effect on dopamine levels, so there is some potential for abuse (theoretically, at least). I haven't found anything like that myself, though. It's not at all racy or euphoric like other speedy drugs (ritalin, adderal, etc), and I never feel craving for it. I rarely use it anymore except when I haven't had enough sleep.

Adrafinil is a prodrug for modafinil, meaning that when metabolized it converts into modafinil. So it has the same effect, except it's a longer onset time. Because it's metabolized differently, however, it might have different impact on the liver and kidneys. I'm not sure how that all works.

Anyways, I'd definitely give it a shot, it may really help with your side effects.

[Anna B]

baclofen dilemma

billy - thank you so much for recommending the Clancy Martin article in LBR. Wow--that was one of the best short pieces on alcoholism that I've ever read. I'm not sure I fully agree w/ his view of theories of alcoholism falling into one of two categories: "possession" vs. "tragic". But I really loved his description of AA meetings. I went to AA for years and was unsettled by a number of things about it but he verbalized something about the meetings that I could never quite put my finger on: that AA embraces a Nietzsche-like form of ascetic ideals in that self-denial can be ironically destructive.

Thanks also for the input about Adrafinil. I'm going to order some and I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Zen--thanks also for the titration advice. I'm planning on titrating down slightly (actually I have to because of work anyway) so hopefully that will help and I won't slip into a bender because of it.

As a side note, I broke down and had some coffee today in spite of my extreme sensitivity to caffeine. I'm definitely more awake because of it (although in sort of a weird fog, like I took an antihistamine). Hopefully I'll be able to sleep tonight and, for the caffeine sensitive alcoholics on bac, I'll also let you know if I'm able to sleep or not. I'm hoping the bac will cancel out the caffeine.

--Anna

[veritas]

baclofen dilemma

Anna B I can relate to your dilemma. Initially I felt euphoric, almost manic on bac, but as the dose went up, it was replaced with drowsyness. I only ever reached 40mgs daily.

My work demands a lot of concentration and I was having overwhelming feelings of tiredness. I titrated down to 30mgs a day and am staying at that dose for a while. I find that I still have cravings, but my brain is working differently. My mind is not returning to the cravings time and time again. I am able to push them aside and I am also able to recollect the feelings associated with hangovers.Its as though my frontal lobes are able to take control.

[beatle]

baclofen dilemma

I also used to be HIGHLY sensitive to coffee -- could not drink more than one cup in the morning. One cup always gave me a boost of energy, and after a while the jitters. If I dared to risk two cups, I would pay a high price. And I could never drink caffeine in the afternoon without ruining my sleep at night.

After starting Bac, even at a low dose, I found my tolerance to coffee to increase, and the jittery reaction to decrease. I am currently feeling it out slowly, but it appears the Bac helps balance out the caffeine effect.

Something I have discovered that works well for concentration/focus is Phosphatidyl Serine (I use the MWO formula, which also includes Ginkgo Biloba extract)-- I discovered this from having problems at work concentrating when I had a hangover! Any way, it seems expensive, but if you compare it to the price of a cup of coffee each time you take a capsule, it is dirt cheap.

[Anna B]

baclofen dilemma

Hi again-- I just wanted to post a quick update for anyone that cares or is sensitive to caffeine. In the last few days I started drinking coffee again (particularly right after getting that really intense sleepy feeling within 15-30 minutes of taking bac) and it has worked (no big surprise there). BUT the beauty is that I haven't had any problems sleeping.

So, Beatle--it sounds like you and I have had the same experience. The bac is balancing out the negative, jittery, anxiety-inducing, sleep-wrecking effects of coffee. YAY!

So it seems that my dilemma is solved for the time being...

--Anna

[billyb]

baclofen dilemma

That's great news, Anna!

So are you successfully going alcohol-free?

[Anna B]

baclofen dilemma

Hi Billy--

I'm not completely AF yet; some days, I am, other days I'm not. I'm getting there though! My big problem right now is trying to balance out getting enough bac in my system with not constantly falling asleep with not being kept up all night by the caffeine I'm now needing b/c of the bac-induced sleepiness. The caffeine is counteracting the bac-induced sleepiness but it's easy for me to unintentionally over-do it. The other night I was up until 5am because I had one too many diet cokes. It sucked!! (of course it's not as bad as passing out drunk so I'm not complaining). So the reason I'm not able to stay AF is mainly b/c I'll lower my bac dose in order to get work done when I know I need to get a good night's sleep. It's really complicated, but I'm slowly figuring stuff out. I want to get enough bac in my system to be completely AF all the time but still be highly-functioning at work. I know I need to be patient but it's hard at times. Overall, though, I feel very positive about my progress (even when I've backslided a bit). Bac is the ONLY medication where I've had this kind of reduction in cravings.

The interesting (and very positive) thing is that my drinking patterns and cravings have completely changed. Most importantly, when I do drink, I drink MUCH less than I used to. For example, when I was out with friends the other night, over the course of 5-6 hours, I had 4 glasses of wine. In the past, if I was out with friends for that long, I would easily have put away too many drinks to count (10+) and potentially started a giant fight with my husband or said something stupid to someone--oh, and of course, would wake up feeling like shit the next day. So, just from a harm reduction perspective, that's a positive outcome.

The other interesting change for me has been that when I do drink now, it's almost always around other people. I used to drink a lot by myself. I had a stash of vodka bottles even in my office at work. Strangely, I would drink MORE by myself than around others. Now, I pretty much only drink around other people--I think mostly out of habit and just not wanting to feel left out. So I don't have the urge to keep a stash of booze in my office and there isn't any there anymore!! That's huge for me.

One example: the other night, I needed to finish something at work and I was there LATE (like until 2am). The liquor stores in my town close at 9pm. While I was working I looked at the clock and it was 9:15 (the stores were closed). That has NEVER happened to me. I always have "get to store before 9pm" as almost an obsessional thought b/c it has felt so terrible to want a drink really badly but not be able to have one. I could have driven home to pick up some booze while I was working, but I didn't want to. Crazy! So I just stayed at work, didn't drink anything and came home, opened a beer out of habit but then forgot about it.

So, to make a long story short, I'm doing well on the bac but I'm still working out some of the kinks with the side effects, dosage, etc.

--Anna

[Cinders]

baclofen dilemma

Anna,

Wow, your story gets better and better.

I think a little more caffeine is a whole lot better than a lot of alcohol.

Even though I went AF and white knuckled for a while, I knew my switch was truly and completely thrown when I would forget to take my Baclofen on time. Prior to that, I was staring at the clock waiting for my next dose to alleviate the cravings. Suddenly one day I realized it was two hours late. What a relief it is.

Now I am very consistent with taking it because I do not want to push up too late in the evening my last dose. It does affect my sleep negatively.

You will get the kinks worked out and I must say you are yet another example of how this drug helps with the cravings and obsessive thoughts.

Keep us posted.

Cindi