Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

[brightlite]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

Marbella,

I'm hoping the combination works for you. You are right in that everyone's path to freedom from AL is different.

[lenaleed]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

Zman;700765 wrote:
My only hesitiation in undertaking the Bac-Nal route is that I read somewhere that Bac messes up TSM.

Geez, zman, the sky is falling again??

I don't think you get how this sort of careless statement can mislead people. We all come to this site for information and it doesn't take much for someone to get the wrong idea. I think you may have gotten the kernel of this from my post near the top of this thread. Here is precisely what I said:

A while ago I had a concern about baclofen having the same effect on the GABA system as benzos, thus hampering the TSM progress of those using the two drugs. But BillP mentioned in a post that baclofen affects GABA b, and has no effect on GABA a -- the type of GABA mediated by benzos and alcohol. So it's possible baclofen would not slow TSM progress.

As I said when you brought up the benzo thing on the TSM board, Dr. Eskapa mentioned that benzo's don't help and might hamper TSM. Sure enough, people were soon posting things like, "Oh no, TSM will not work with benzos." It took weeks for us to tamp that little bit of misinformation down. [As an aside, as I've said here elsewhere, people on benzos seem to be progressing at about the same rate as the others.] You even pm'd me with the bac/TSM question and I told you just what I posted above. Then you go and post the above quote.

I learned everything I know about TSM from people on this board kind enough to share what they know. We continued learning together. BillP and others have work exhaustively to build up a powerhouse of knowledge about baclofen. These methods are new and can have complications so it's important to be as accurate as possible for the sake of each other.

We all are fighting for our lives here. Please be more thoughtful in what you post. You have gotten a lot out of this board and I wish you would not get in the way of the progress of others by being careless with the facts.

[beatle]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

Some reactions to the posts here:

I agree with cinders on that it appears to be a win-win situation to use Bac and Nal together -- remember the mantra: whatever works!

But I keep trying to remind cinders that almost nobody in this big wide world has a physician who "gets it" -- so stop ranting on that cindi! (ok, that was an aside, and actually cinders is my hero and mentor.)

Marbella, your post was very elucidating. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate the time and effort you took to post that.

And Brightlite (LiteBrite) -- you are so right: any path that leads to freedom is the right path.

[lenaleed]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

It certainly could be win-win to use both, but as some of you have said it's pretty dicey to do it without medical supervision. I would give a big fat prize to anyone who posted on here that they convinced their m.d. to give them s scrip for a method that requires continued drinking plus a scrip for baclofen. Many on the TSM board who get an rx from their m.d. just ask for the nal to help them stop drinking (which is true) and the m.d. assumes that they are using it as an anticraving drug and everyone's happy. I suppose you could use that approach to get an rx for both as a "cocktail" but that might involve more scrutiny by the m.d. and it would be imprudent to actually provide false information.

Some day they'll catch up with us . . . .

[lenaleed]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

It certainly could be win-win to use both, but as some of you have said it's pretty dicey to do it without medical supervision. I would give a big fat prize to anyone who posted on here that they convinced their m.d. to give them s scrip for a method that requires continued drinking plus a scrip for baclofen. Many on the TSM board who get an rx from their m.d. just ask for the nal to help them stop drinking (which is true) and the m.d. assumes that they are using it as an anticraving drug and everyone's happy. I suppose you could use that approach to get an rx for both as a "cocktail" but that might involve more scrutiny by the m.d. and it would be imprudent to actually provide false information.

Some day they'll catch up with us . . . .

Just be careful, anyone who does this. And do let us know how it goes.

[beatle]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

lenaleed;700929 wrote: It certainly could be win-win to use both, but as some of you have said it's pretty dicey to do it without medical supervision. I would give a big fat prize to anyone who posted on here that they convinced their m.d. to give them s scrip for a method that requires continued drinking plus a scrip for baclofen. Many on the TSM board who get an rx from their m.d. just ask for the nal to help them stop drinking (which is true) and the m.d. assumes that they are using it as an anticraving drug and everyone's happy. I suppose you could use that approach to get an rx for both as a "cocktail" but that might involve more scrutiny by the m.d. and it would be imprudent to actually provide false information.

Some day they'll catch up with us . . . .

Oh, lena, I do so hope they'll catch up with us.

[Lusus Naturae]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

Lena, why so harsh? Bad day?

Asking an honest question about something that you yourself posted, and is also echoed by ~Q~: "What I'm reading from Dr. Eskapa's post is that Baclofen is not recommended with The Sinclair Method."

How, exactly, is Zman's question about things he's likely read on the tsm board "misleading", and why does it deserve such a response?

While we're at it, I don't seem to see your wrath directed at people who in this very thread, on this site, and on the tsm board spread misinformation about baclofen.

Some of them include "it [baclofen] is essentially a methadone for drunks", "Baclofen: 100+? people cured (not really, just not drinking while on meds)" (that one in this very thread), "TSM: 100,000+ people cured", "you have to take bac for life, but with nal you're cured and don't have to take it for life", and the list goes on... I'll provide links if you're interested.

Again, I haven't seen one response anything like the double barrelled response to Zman to those posts. Why not?

.

[lenaleed]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

Marbs -- You are not the only one who fell of the nal wagon. Someone else reported it as well. Those of us who had nausea from the first dose or two have wondered how it will be when we take it only occasionally. Fortunately, most all of the cured report this is not an issue.

No one should ever have to feel it is their "fault" when things don't go smoothly. We come to these boards for information and support. If we wanted to feel bad about ourselves there's alway Rational Recovery or AA (and, odds are, a good bit of unhealthy drinking to go with them).

Glad you're doing well.

[lenaleed]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

I'm not sure what's going on. But I hope everyone reads the link in Lusus' post to appreciate the context. It's in a thread by Oceana, who uses both and is getting results. Dr. Eskapa does not "sanction" baclofen or, for that matter diazapines, but he does not say that baclofen will prevent success with or "mess with" TSM.

I would hate to have anyone read zman's post and, based on it, rule out what we have been saying here could be a winning combination.

Just like the silly sugar dustup.

I think there's been a good bit of distracting stuff the last few days so I'm going to say see you later because I feel I got pulled into the silly season.

Best to all
lena

[beatle]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

I do not get it why people are getting so personally offended here. Everyone is just trying to share their experience and what they have heard and how they feel. I appreciate that.

[bloggy]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

lenaleed;700943 wrote: Marbs -- You are not the only one who fell of the bac wagon. Someone else reported it as well. Those of us who had nausea from the first dose or two have wondered how it will be when we take it only occasionally. Fortunately, most all of the cured report this is not an issue.

I think it wouldn't have been such an issue for me if when I felt sick/dizzy/disorientated I could have just laid down or at least sat down in the loo for 5 mins. However that hasn't been possible- a very unusual situation bought about by severe financial difficulties etc- if I could have timed things a bit, or had less stress, it may have been different.

I don't want to put anyone of the Bac route or the Nal route- I am probably the biggest fan of both- as in to say that both methods WILL WORK to get rid of the monkey on our backs- but I just wanted to reply to the thread subject that for me, using the 2 together has been a good method of control- but I do not feel that both together is a cure. For that I think it is better to go for one method or the other.

[happy4once]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

Hi Marbella - thanks so much for posting some of the behind the scenes issues you were having with both drugs - very informative and so sorry you have a very, very strong reaction to meds (good and bad it would seem). Just wanted to pop in and send you warm wishes - I hope you can get back to the Bac (with or without Nal) soon and continue getting better. Best to you!

I hope this thread continues a bit more and that others provide insight. I am a TSMer but have really been wondering lately if for some of the high-anxiety, high-level drinkers on TSM if a bit of Bac would help them get through. TSM takes a while to kick in for many, and it is so painful to watch people struggle through continued high-levels...many of them also having extremely high levels of anxiety - if adding Baclofen to the mix instead of an anti-anxiety drug could help them through the process more easily, wouldn't that be wonderful? And yes, they could switch over entirely to Bac, but I think if someone chooses TSM they are interested in the extinction aspect of that method and so the combo may be the next best thing for them (relief from anxiety, perhaps relief from cravings, and still achieve extinction).

However, having said that, the few that have done both have seen a bit of success but have cautioned others against trying it (Ashl over at TSM echoed Marbella's comments above)...

I still think it's worth talking about even if no one has found the magic combo yet. If you think about it, a year ago there were only a few people on this forum talking about either Nal or Bac -- look at us now: arguing about which one heals better and the nuances of each cure - fairly startling contrast. So many people have beat their addiction because of the discussions on this forum and the brave people here willing to go against their doctor's orders to get cured. Keep talking...

[brightlite]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

What happy4once said!

Can't we all just get along! We are all in this together! Like I said before....everyone's path is different and WHATEVER tool works is the best for that person!

Most of us are taking our addiction into our own hands and if you can find a Doctor to supervise then great! Since Alkies are the scourge of the disease world...sometimes you have to take matters into your own hands.

[Lo0p]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

Lusus Naturae;700941 wrote: While we're at it, I don't seem to see your wrath directed at people who in this very thread, on this site, and on the tsm board spread misinformation about baclofen.

Some of them include "Baclofen: 100+? people cured (not really, just not drinking while on meds)" (that one in this very thread), "TSM: 100,000+ people cured"

I agree that Lena gets worked up from time to time, I still love her to death. It's not "wrath," she cares.

Those are not my words, they are what my parents said to me based on what I had found out.

I have a question, and am genuinely interested and curious. How is this misinformation? I haven't researched baclofen extensively, what am I missing?

[Anna B]

Baclofen with Naltrexone (TSM)

Lo0p;704849 wrote: I agree that Lena gets worked up from time to time, I still love her to death. It's not "wrath," she cares.

Those are not my words, they are what my parents said to me based on what I had found out.

I have a question, and am genuinely interested and curious. How is this misinformation? I haven't researched baclofen extensively, what am I missing?

Sorry, but can we please just end this and be happy for each other that we've all found different things that work for us? Of course, everyone is free to say whatever they want but it just seems like this whole bac vs. TSM thing is getting personal and I just don't get it.

Please don't attack me for putting this out there.