eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

[Greg]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

I just wanted to share my own experiences in case they may be of some use. I've tried a variety of medications over the years both to try and stop/cut down drinking and to treat other issues like anxiety, depression, and insomnia.

Unfortunately nothing seemed to be able to work for me while I was still drinking, which is why I detoxed over a week or so and then tried baclofen again. It has seemed a lot more effective in reducing cravings and also helping anxiety and depression now that I'm not drinking. When I used it while drinking it didn't help even in quite large doses (over 50 mg) and usually just combined with the alcohol to make me feel more out of it. I have used benzos too for quite a while but they didn't help anxiety or other issues while drinking, they merely helped to delay alcohol withdrawal symptoms in between binges. Campral was another med that had no benefits while drinking but did have benefits during a previous period of abstinence. Antidepressants have similarly failed when taken while drinking, or they've had unbearable side-effects. I am planning to try one of them again while sober if depression doesn't ease.

I tried naltrexone according to the Sinclair Method but didn't try it for the very long periods of time (eg. 6 months) that successful users have said is needed for it to work. I was using the much shorter time frames and graphs of extinction mentioned by Dr's Sinclair and Eskapa, and when I had no results at all after a couple of months I did not continue the naltrexone. For anyone reading this, yes I did take it 1 hour before drinking every time. It seemed to help somewhat during the first week, which others have called 'the honeymoon period', but after that I didn't notice benefits.

I would consider TSM again if all else failed to keep me sober, since at least this time I could hopefully start it at a much lower drinking level than when I was drinking 20+ standard drinks every night.

Regarding alcohol detox, I'm sure you know it must be done safely under a doctor's supervision or in a hospital/detox clinic, not cold turkey. I did mine as an outpatient under my doctor's supervision and it went well despite me drinking an average of 21 standard drinks (over 26 'units') every night for over a year.

[eight days a week]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

Yesterday:

25 (maybe more) UK units over an 18 hour time-frame
60mg Bac
7mg diazepam

Thank you so very much indeed for your encouragement to keep posting craving, startingover, and D2M. I really need to do this (post daily) and so, so much needed your kind words. I have no-one to be accountable to except this site. In fact, posting like this keeps me going even when the days are as rotten as yesterday's :thanks:

startingover, thank you so much, you made such a lovely point, that my thread may help others one day, that is my greatest hope I try not to post much personal stuff here (maybe I should?) but this stuff with my sister has troubled me so. If I can help anyone else who has relationship issues that go hand-in-hand with their drinking then I will be over the moon

Greg - thank you so much for posting your experiences, I hope they won't be lost in my sea of posts about myself It's very interesting to hear that Bac worked so much better after a detox, that's something my own specialist is considering recommending for me. Unfortunately, there is no home support for detox in my area, and the waiting list for an inpatient detox is 3-4 months here. In any case, I don't believe lifelong abstinence will work for me (certainly not while I'm a live-in carer for an alcoholic father!) so for the moment I pin my hopes on the Ameisen model for Baclofen, and continue to take Nal under TSM.

I think you're absolutely right - Drs Sinclair and Eskapa suggest a three to four month time-frame for 'cure' which I think is wildly inaccurate. In fact, I'd go further and say I think it may fatally undermine Dr Eskapa's book, and is probably why not much notice has been taken of it. If thousands and thousands of Finns have been 'cured' in this fashion, why has no-one ever heard from more than one or two of them? Where are the much-needed follow-up studies - decades later. Dr Sinclair has moved away from TSM for alcohol when it hasn't been generally accepted anywhere around the world except for Finland, why? There are too many questions and none of them ever seem to be answered.

Add into the equation that on the TSM message board the some of the 'cured' continue to encourage starters with something along the lines of 'it works for most people' - 16 people at the last count have declared it works for them, I believe, out of a membership of three (or four?) hundred plus. That's the same pathetic percentage that many members there attack AA for!!

Ah well, such is life I guess. Bless us all, may we all find a way

eight

[Greg]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

Hi 8 I'd also like to encourage you to keep posting.

Even if you can't stop drinking you can still benefit from baclofen, and of course nal. I detoxed to give myself relief from extremely heavy daily drinking, and to give baclofen a chance to work while sober, but most others here are taking it without detoxing first.

I have another reservation about TSM, namely that on the TSM forum I was led to believe that the original studies quoted by Drs Sinclair and Eskapa involved drinkers whose average weekly intake was only around 30 standard drinks. If naltrexone cured them then that's great, but it would be more reassuring to know that original studies involved people drinking at more typical alcoholic levels. Men who catch up with their mates after work for a few beers and who have a night or two out on weekends would be drinking 30 or more per week, as would some of my mother's female work friends who drink wine when they socialise.

I still haven't totally given up on TSM and if I find sobriety too hard to maintain then I'll give it another try. At a much lower starting drinking level it could work much better for me this time. I just won't be expecting a complete cure in 3-4 months!

[eight days a week]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

Many thanks again Greg

Yes, the studies at such low drinking levels seem ridiculous - I think the majority of people in Britain probably drink around that! And, TSM is supposedly the first-line treatment for alcoholic Finns, if I remember it correctly, and plenty of them must have been drinking at very much higher levels, and their data tracked, why are there no clinical reports from successful 'real-life' treatment in the book? I'm beginning to find it all increasingly bizarre.

I was abstinent before starting to drink again under TSM my friend. To be fair, I would never have managed lifelong sobriety anyway, I don't have the strength or surroundings to make that possible. But, it's even easier to return to drinking if there are ways that seem to promise you can get it under control. At over six months on TSM I've certainly lost my endorphin enjoyment of drink, and yet still I drink, and recently at horrendous levels again. I guess I may be an example to those who are currently abstinent but tempted back to drink to try to use TSM to get things under control?

Yesterday wasn't a great day either:

70mg Bac
7mg diazepam
25 UK units AL

[Greg]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

The whole situation surrounding TSM and Dr Eskapa's book is bizarre in that its claims do not live up to reality, and yet there was no obvious money-making involved either. Some people do get cured by it, even if not within the time frame and even though they were drinking way more than 30/week. Like AA however it's simply not a cure-all.

I didn't plan on lifelong abstinence either. Coming up to my detox, I just told myself I needed a break and would use it to try moderated drinking using either TSM or baclofen or both. I ended up staying off alcohol due to having some Antabuse tablets handy, which I take each afternoon. I'm seeing if I can hold out. Even though I long for alcohol again I do enjoy being able to get up in the mornings, and being able to drive. I'm catching up on the things I just couldn't do when I was on the grog. I know that I have heaps of personal/emotional life stuff to deal with in addition to the drinking problem, so for me I think action beyond just taking medications is needed. Even going back to AA could help me, and it's at least a source of sober socialising at night.

We seem to have a similar drinking pattern. I was hovering around the 21 standard drink mark each day before stopping, which is around 26-27 UK units. My current benzo use is 0.75 mg alprazolam (down from 1 mg), which is equivalent to 7.5 mg diazepam.

[Funny Girl]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

ok - forgive my dumb question, but what is TSM? My plan is to start on the Topomax when I get it & go from there. Do any of you do that? I have ordered some since that's what was recommended in the "My Way Out" book. I hear mixed reviews, but figure I can't lose by trying it at least. Not sure about Baclofen - only what I've heard on the message boards.

Any insights would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[eight days a week]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

Greg, thank you again for your wise words. Treasure every moment of your abstinence, as I did, because once you get back on the drink it'll seem like you'll never get back there. I tried moderation on TSM, and it just didn't work. Over six months later and I'm just as bad as I ever was, well almost. I'm sure it's 'cured' the endorphin side of things, but what good's that if I still drink anyway?!

I'm seriously considering requesting another detox. The thing is, you can't get an inpatient one here at a dedicated facility (tried hospital, and they didn't give me enough Librium, they barely knew what they were doing, so I'll never go down that route again) unless you pledge lifelong abstinence. I'll need a few more days being as bad as this before I'm ready to take that step. But, it's getting ever closer I feel.

Have you discussed moving from alprazolam to diazepam with your doc? It's much easier to slowly reduce diazepam, as it comes in 2mg tablets. Also, as you know but others might not, you can start the Baclofen while abstinent, indeed my specialist reckons it's way better that way, and is starting to recommend detox so the Baclofen can do its work unhindered. It's not a direct alternative/substitute for the benzos, but I believe it's helped me reduce a little indirectly.

Enjoy every minute of your abstinence my friend. However appealing a drink may seem to you, if I could manage it I'd be back there in a flash. The very best months of my last few years.

Funny Girl, 'TSM' is short for 'the Sinclair Method'. You take 50mg Naltrexone an hour or more before you have a drink, and over time (3 or 4 months in the book, longer in real life) you're supposed to be 'cured'. If you look up Dr Roy Eskapa's book on Amazon it's well worth a read. It hasn't worked for me yet, but the science still seems convincing to me, even though the real life figures don't seem to tally with those in the book, or in fact come anywhere close. It has, though, like I say, seemed to cut out the huge endorphin 'rush' I got from drinking before, so even though it hasn't 'cured' me like the book promised, as I still drink like a fish, I'm scared to give it up.

[cash]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

Hi Eight and Greg - it has taken me a while to cath up on reading htis thred - it is a good one. So I had (you may have read in another thred) a scary Topomax exp with blurred vision. Only gets 1% or users - luck me but acute myopie and can cause permanent glaucoma. Needless to say I stopped immediately. Went back to GP and got Campral. Im so disappointed I stopped the NAL in TSM- I was about 5.5 months in then has an o/S trip - wasn't to keen to carry through customs so stopped it. Seems like I may have been very close to a breakthrough. And no noticable side effects and you just take it when you drink is another huge advantage. So now I have a months NAl left and new prescripton for Campral. Not too sure which way to go - or to do both? Would that be bad??
Thanks all for all the wise words by the way. I couldn't skip to the last page - like not wanting to put down a good book in a way. OR maybe Nal just wasn't goign to work for me - it is the easiest solution though by far!

[Virgil]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

eight days a week;806009 wrote: I think you're absolutely right - Drs Sinclair and Eskapa suggest a three to four month time-frame for 'cure' which I think is wildly inaccurate. In fact, I'd go further and say I think it may fatally undermine Dr Eskapa's book, and is probably why not much notice has been taken of it. If thousands and thousands of Finns have been 'cured' in this fashion, why has no-one ever heard from more than one or two of them? Where are the much-needed follow-up studies - decades later. Dr Sinclair has moved away from TSM for alcohol when it hasn't been generally accepted anywhere around the world except for Finland, why? There are too many questions and none of them ever seem to be answered.

Add into the equation that on the TSM message board the some of the 'cured' continue to encourage starters with something along the lines of 'it works for most people' - 16 people at the last count have declared it works for them, I believe, out of a membership of three (or four?) hundred plus. That's the same pathetic percentage that many members there attack AA for!!

As 8 is well aware, I tried TSM but had no success. However, this is 8's thread so I shall refrain from going into any detail here about my TSM journey. Should anyone want (!) to contact me about TSM, please PM me.

V.

[eight days a week]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

Hi cash. My goodness, I think you must have accidentally posted on the wrong thread, but I'll take any encouragement I can get right now, so, so very many thanks for the kind words!!

Ah, I thought I was close to a breakthrough months ago on Nal when it seemed to 'cure' the pleasure of drinking, but still I drink. I think taking AF days at this point could help me tremendously, but I just can't seem to manage it As for Campral and Nal together, TSM of course requires that you drink when you take Nal, but my prescribing doc (an alcohol specialist) told me last year that Campral only works when you don't. He said I could try taking it while still drinking, but he didn't think it'd make any difference. Nal and Campral work on completely different parts of the brain I think, (please check, don't just take my word for it!) and if so in theory I guess it'd be OK.

All the best to you

Yesterday, not good:

7mg diazapam
40mg Bac (I was too spaced out already from the booze and little food)
25 or so UK units again

All this alcohol's starting to mess up my stomach a lot. I don't know what to do

[eight days a week]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

Virgil;807025 wrote: As 8 is well aware, I tried TSM but had no success. However, this is 8's thread so I shall refrain from going into any detail here about my TSM journey. Should anyone want (!) to contact me about TSM, please PM me.

V.

Please feel free to go into a little more detail my friend, if you wish. I want this thread to be enlightening in every sense (and with only me posting it will be enlightening in no(n)sense, ha!)

[craving]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

eight days a week;807027 wrote:
All this alcohol's starting to mess up my stomach a lot. I don't know what to do

what kind of stomach problems do you have? Alcohol caused me constant heartburn i.e. reflux problems.
What helped me is taking each day Omeprazol - which makes that the acid in my stomach is not that much acid. Works incredible well. Although it is better to erase the cause and not the symptom

[eight days a week]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

craving;807033 wrote: what kind of stomach problems do you have? Alcohol caused me constant heartburn i.e. reflux problems.
What helped me is taking each day Omeprazol - which makes that the acid in my stomach is not that much acid. Works incredible well. Although it is better to erase the cause and not the symptom

Thank you my friend. I already take Lansoprazole (which has a similar effect I believe) every morning because of the effect drinking has, but even that at these drinking levels is not enough. I've added in Gaviscon tablets. Early this morning I was very sick indeed. Maybe it was just one time, but it's got me a bit worried...once I do finally get the drink under control I'm going to have my stomach investigated by the docs, I think I may have done myself some permanent damage

[craving]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

eight days a week;807035 wrote: Thank you my friend. I already take Lansoprazole (which has a similar effect I believe) every morning because of the effect drinking has, but even that at these drinking levels is not enough. I've added in Gaviscon tablets. Early this morning I was very sick indeed. Maybe it was just one time, but it's got me a bit worried...once I do finally get the drink under control I'm going to have my stomach investigated by the docs, I think I may have done myself some permanent damage

Yes Lansoprazole uses the same way of action as Omeprazol.
I have upped it to double dose one time, but had problems with my stomach then - it appeared I had then diarrhea - my guess was that because my stomach acid was not acid enough too many bacterias could pass through down to my colon!

Since I am AF, I am not taking any more Omeprazol, and it seems to have fixed itself. already 8 days without it, and previous to that i took it only 1 time each 2 days.
Chances are very good, that once you stop drinking your stomach will find its balance on its own.

[eight days a week]

eight days' intro and Bac and Nal (Sinclair Method) progress

Thank you craving, I do hope things will be better once I no longer drink to excess. What a nasty substance this is eh?

I have quite a 'weak' stomach anyway, so booze really affects it. And I don't like this Lansoprazole. It's yet another chemical I'm taking, and has brought spots out on my legs (apparently a common side effect). I found something in the newspaper about a brand of salts called Eno - sodium bicarbonate and sodium carbonate - and am thinking of trying that instead.