Baclofen dose concentration; minor Antabuse miracle

[Greg]

Hi All,

Some of you may remember me from last year, when I posted here and on the Sinclair board. I was the guy who was always "gunna" do this and that but would then disappear when the time for action came along. Basically I was just too chicken-shit to give up my lifelong emotional crutch of alcohol, despite it killing me.

Anyway, I'm finally off my lazy rear end and into the fourth day of a home alcohol detoxification (using diazepam). No alcohol at all taken during that time. My doctor has agreed to follow up the detox with daily high dose baclofen maintenance treatment.

My main question is one I know was answered here previously, so please forgive me for repeating it. I need the answer so I can be ready to start the baclofen. Simply put, I have no desire to drink alcohol during the day, and never have had, even during previous periods of white-knuckle sobriety. My overpowering craving hits me during late afternoon but even more during the evening (e.g. 8 PM onwards, a few hours before bed). Can baclofen be taken in any extremely uneven daily dosing schedule...in this case most of the dose towards evening and shortly before bed (to help with insomnia which also affects me), with just a small dose or two during the daytime to offset possible baclofen withdrawals? I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who uses it in this way (I do know someone takes 200 mg all in one dose but I'm not sure I could handle that).

One last interesting point about my time-related cravings is that I have been able to happily and voluntarily take some Antabuse during the daytime during this detox, knowing it will simply stop all those arguments going around in my head at night about whether I should just quit the detox and bust. It stops the depression and anguish and guilt caused by all the escuses and temptations to drink that would normally pop into my head as the day went on. I just carry Antabuse at all times during the day and ritualistically take it around 2 PM, happily saying to myself "well you CAN'T drink now, can you mate". I can't claim all the credit for this, since I said an earnest prayer to a Higher Power to be with me all the way through this journey, and I regard my taking of the Antabuse as a sort of agreement with him..even a sacred ritual. And this is from someone who isn't religious or into AA!! I do credit this one little daily event as critical to my absolute lack of a slip so far. I have blown most previous outpatient detoxes by early on Day 2!

I hope everyone else has been doing very well.
Greg

[beatle]

Baclofen dose concentration; minor Antabuse miracle

It makes sense to me, and I have considered it myself.

I'll be interested to hear what others have to say about it.

[beatle]

Baclofen dose concentration; minor Antabuse miracle

It would probably be good to experiment slowly with the doses and timing, to see how it affects you, with the goal being to shift most into the later part of the day.

[more2life]

Baclofen dose concentration; minor Antabuse miracle

Greg-

I'm not sure why the majority of people on this site don't like antabuse. Antabuse is a miracle drug for me. I will not drink when I take it, nor do I have a craving to drink. The options is off the table. So therefore, I might as well quit thinking about it and move on. I used to take it once a week and allow myself a few drinks on the weekend. That worked well for quite a while, but now I'm wanting some serious AF time. I've started taking it every 4 days, and am on my 6thAF day today. I have no choice now, but to make it to day 10, then ask myself if I want to keep going, if I do I'll take another antabuse. If I don't I will still have to wait 4-5 days before I can have a drink, it stays in your system for two weeks, or longer. Antabuse doesn't work for everyone, but it does work for me without side effects, unless of course I try to sneak one in. I should mention I also tried taking Bac, but couldn't tolerate more than 40mg.

M2

[Greg]

Baclofen dose concentration; minor Antabuse miracle

M2-

I think they probably dislike Antabuse for the same reasons I did. Because it doesn't have a direct psychoactive effect, I spent years thinking it could never be useful for me. All I was interested in trying were medications that could stop alcohol craving via neurotransmitter effects or via a substituted state of intoxication (e.g. cannabis, benzodiazepines...also thought about trying harder stuff).

I didn't stop to realise how much it could help with the insane inner mental battle. As you say, THE OPTION IS OFF THE TABLE. Once a person takes Antabuse, there is absolutely no point in debating in your head whether you should give in to a drink or not, because enjoyable drinking is simply not possible on Antabuse. In fact drinking is guaranteed to be a hideous and possibly hospital-inducing experience.

I think a person really has to be ready to take this route however, and have very real and immediate things ready to go in their life to allow them to be alcohol-free without experiencing severe depression or pervasive dysphoria. I spent years unable to find any sort of contentment without the alcoholic buzz to escape into at the end of each day. I used it since my early 20's to replace feelings of shyness, loneliness, depression, and inadequacy with the chemical high. I tried AA for years without feeling any sense of contentment or peace. I think it's only NOW that I can actually LOOK FORWARD TO TAKING ANTABUSE, because the depression has become so bad due to alcohol's after-effects and my total inability to do anything useful due to being drunk, asleep, or grossly hungover all the time. With Antabuse at least I know that I'll be able to get out of bed in the morning instead of midday, feel some self-respect in front of my family and friends, have a chance of working again, and have a small glimmer of hope for a future and even a relationship at my age of 42. Even the chance to find friendship and some self-respect by returning to AA (even though I generally hate meetings!!) and a chance at having a small understanding of a Higher Power of my understanding is more than I have when I'm drinking. My only alternative is a futureless alcoholic haze in which my life just goes further and further down the toilet as I grow older and older. Even my very short latest period of sobriety has featured far more hope than anything I could feel during years of hopeless drinking.

I just hope I can continue taking Antabuse within the context of hope and looking forward to taking it as an agreement with my "Higher Power" and my own sense of desperately wanting that guarantee every day that I'm not going to be able to get drunk that night. I hope it's not just a "honeymoon" phase of early sobriety. I will be honest and admit that I still have my mind open to relying on a couple of psychoactive medications apart from baclofen (no hard drugs) to get me through severely depressive episodes if I can't cope any other way, so I'm not yet aiming to be sober in the strictest AA sense, but for me ANYTHING IS BETTER THAN GOING BACK TO BEING A HOPELESS DRUNK!! I now fully accept that I can never enjoy or manage my life if I drink.

I truly hope that younger people here can get to this state of mind way earlier than I did, instead of wasting 20+ years of their lives. I can't offer any magic advice...all I can say is that my old attitudes towards life seem to have almost burned themselves out over time and with daily negative experiences with alcohol. Vowing to save my life for my own sake and that of loving family and friends, who I was hurting every day, helped...as did asking "God" to "please come on this journey with me to save my life".

I also try to constantly remind myself that "FOR THAT BRIEF AND FLEETING HIGH (from drinking) THE PRICE IS WAY TOO HIGH (loss of everything else)".

Anyway sorry if this ended up sounding like a preaching ranting sermon! So far I'm having trouble tolerating bac above about 50 mg (strong dizziness/sedation but accompanied by extreme insomnia, ringing in the ears, and headache) but it's very early days for me yet and I was tempted to increase the dose way, way too quickly (to try and fill in the emotional void as the detox drugs wore off). Bad mistake, but at least baclofen wears off quicker than most other medications if too much is taken!

Greg

[Cinders]

Baclofen dose concentration; minor Antabuse miracle

Greg,

It is good to see you back!!

My experience with Antabuse is very different. I would quit taking it and wait a week and POW, get sick as a dog. I started playing head games with it.

However, it is still a good tool. I just need more ammo.

Oh, btw, I love AA and the people there. I just can't often get to the meetings. :-(

Now, on to the Baclofen. Yes, resoundingly, you can take your doses at odd times, etc.

But, I want to give you a word of warning. You must titrate slowly on Baclofen to see how you react. I found if I take a dose near bedtime, I have difficulty breathing during sleep. I woke up sometimes gasping for air.

What I have found, personally, is that a dose about an hour before "witching" time works wonders. I mean wonders, really.

In my case "witching" hour is morning and mid afternoon. (I was an all day drinker.)

The great thing about you taking Antabuse and Baclofen is that the Bac will help with the cravings greatly, and the Antabuse will help with the other stuff. I have learned that I have other "stuff" that can send me into a binge, even on Baclofen.

You are attacking both areas at once.

You sound wonderful and ready to get 'er done.

I look forward to hearing about your progress.

Love,
Cindi

[Greg]

Baclofen dose concentration; minor Antabuse miracle

Beatle I'll be playing around with the timing of doses to see what works best for me.

Cindi thanks for the welcome back. I used Antabuse in the past and agree it is easily possible to stop taking it, which is why I'm trying to stick to an obsessive ritual to make sure I take it in the early afternoon no matter what. I used to take it for a while then deliberately stop because the desire to drink was driving me nuts, and then i'd end up sick and half-drunk several days later.

It's not the people I don't like at AA. They are sincere towards anyone trying not to drink and are nearly always very friendly. I just don't like long group meetings. I get fidgety and desperately want to leave. However I know I need them so I'm just going to go along and try to listen to all the similarities and things that seem helpful to me. I hate getting up to speak in front of a group too but I've managed it.

I will have to go back over this site and look at all the titration and timing info about taking baclofen, since I haven't been around here for so long. I'll be trying to swing the doses as much towards my own night-time drinking period as I can. I don't have Dr Ameisen's book in front of me but I remember him taking PRN/as needed extra doses when he felt strong cravings. My own "witching hour" is around 8-9 PM although I often start thinking about feeling the drunken high during the mid-late afternoon.

I have many issues to work on myself and must add heaps of real life activities to my medication regime. I need to deal with issues like shyness, loneliness, depression, and trying to meet someone for a relationship (maybe later when I'm feeling more stable).

Thanks for your congratulations and I'll let you know how I go.

This may seem an obvious question, but if you are feeling emotionally stable and not depressed, and things are going well in life, do you still feel the actual desire to experience the "good" feelings that being drunk can bring? This is my current problem. Does baclofen stop that insane desire even when it is fully there in your mind? Does it stop that desire from even developing if taken in time? I need to blunt or forget this desire to feel the emotions of alcohol intoxication every night..it's sort of an obsession with me...because nothing else (pot, benzos, etc) can truly replicate the alcohol experience so it's futile for me to imagine I can feel like I'm drinking when I'm not! I DON'T EVER WANT TO GO BACK TO ALCOHOL. If it means feeling a bit flat, irritable, or depressed at night then that's what I have to get used to...plus having "natural highs" via interests and activities at night to substitute for the alcohol.

Love,
Greg

[Cinders]

Baclofen dose concentration; minor Antabuse miracle

Greg,

This may seem an obvious question, but if you are feeling emotionally stable and not depressed, and things are going well in life, do you still feel the actual desire to experience the "good" feelings that being drunk can bring? This is my current problem. Does baclofen stop that insane desire even when it is fully there in your mind? Does it stop that desire from even developing if taken in time? I need to blunt or forget this desire to feel the emotions of alcohol intoxication every night..it's sort of an obsession with me...because nothing else (pot, benzos, etc) can truly replicate the alcohol experience so it's futile for me to imagine I can feel like I'm drinking when I'm not! I DON'T EVER WANT TO GO BACK TO ALCOHOL. If it means feeling a bit flat, irritable, or depressed at night then that's what I have to get used to...plus having "natural highs" via interests and activities at night to substitute for the alcohol.

I am like you, Greg, very committed to my drug of choice. I do not enjoy the experience of any of the "good" meds others do. Alcohol is the only thing that has ever given me that feeling of euphoria and happiness.

That said. It doesn't anymore. My friend turned on me in a very evil way. I do get glimpses of the feelings if I drink. They last about 20 to 30 minutes, I think. Maybe an hour. Then I black out.

Yes, I have to put up with the flat, antsy, something is missing feeling.

However, I want you to understand that I do not have the ability to titrate up as high as others here have. I am using mine prescribed and my doctor will not go higher than the 80 mg/day dose. I never have hit my "off switch."

Even so, the Baclofen helps me stay sober. I have to put effort in it but it does allow me to overcome those cravings when I want to.

Occasionally, I have said ef it and drank. It has ALWAYS ended up badly, though.

I may purchase some online and go for it.

I have to give myself some more time, first, though, as I have just been bumped up on a much higher dosage of Gabapentin and Verpamil for my cluster headaches and those are affecting me. When that settles down, I will probably try to get to the off switch.

I have seen great progress from people here. It takes time, though. But not as long as Naltrexone.

Keep taking the Antabuse and start working the Baclofen slowly. I read your other post about taking your dose all at once at night.

Be patient. It is difficult. We all want this monkey off our back and right now. If you go to AA, you will know that is one of our character flaws. We want relief and we want it now!!

It seems to me, you are doing the right things. AA, Baclofen, Antabuse. I think you have a winner combination going. I really do.

I personally keep tripping over Step 1 but have finally realized that I am truly an alcoholic. I cannot drink. I am powerless once I take that first drink. I have great power if I abstain.

One other thing. We talked about exactly what you are asking last night in my meeting. That desire for a drink to make things better. One of the people there said something I finally realized yesterday. Us alcoholics simply do not know how to deal with life on life's terms. We learned to avoid issues and unpleasant feelings. We also learned that we could make good feelings better with alcohol, so we don't even know how to just feel good and go with it. You and I both have a lot of learning to do. Learning to live life on life's terms sober.

A daunting task but one I am prepared to take on.

Love,
Cindi

[lenaleed]

Baclofen dose concentration; minor Antabuse miracle

Greg -- Hi old friend! Sounds like you may have devised YourWayOut! I'm very happy for you and wish you all the best. If simply wanting it were enough, you'd have had this licked a long time ago. I'm so happy this site is here to let us the choose the tools that will work for us. Best, lena

[Greg]

Baclofen dose concentration; minor Antabuse miracle

Cindi it does seem like we have a great deal in common with our "relationship" with alcohol. However unlike many others I don't suddenly want a drink at the sight or smell of alcohol, or when I'm going past a bar, club, or bottle shop. Seeing people drinking doesn't trigger cravings. For me it has always been purely about the drug experience of alcohol...the feelings it creates and those it can remove.

However I just tell myself now that whatever good feelings may be possible will always be greatly outweighed by all the negatives. Feeling that high briefly just isn't worth all the hassle now. Towards the end of my latest heavy drinking bout I was up above 20 standard drinks every night and there was only brief periods of highs or positives, all the rest was either oblivious stupor, sleep, or shuffling around the next day trying to cope with all the after-effects. I know I can never go back to the days of alcohol being a truly positive high, even if I abstain for months or years. I did that once and found I was right back up to my high drinking levels (tolerance) and back to all the negative symptoms within a couple of days of resuming drinking after months of total abstinence. I'm sure you've heard that said in AA many times.

Yes I have a lot to learn about dealing with life properly and without the need to feel altered. I used alcohol to try and deal with life since my early 20's, instead of dealing with the problems I had back then in a healthier manner.

Hi Lena, thanks also for the welcome. I had wondered how you were. I haven't been to TSM forum for months but I hope everyone is making good progress both there and here. I'll let you know if this does prove to be the way out for me!

Greg

P.S. Does anyone else find that they get automatically logged-out of this forum while trying to compose a message? I have resorted to writing my replies as a notepad text file then copying and pasting, after having to log back in.

[craving]

Baclofen dose concentration; minor Antabuse miracle

I took Baclofen before concentrated within few hours.
i.e. all day nothing and then 2pm 75mg at once - or more.

I made the experience that I get neck pain when doing this. That is why I am doing it now more constant - in more rations. Was sick of taking big chunks of Ibuprofen to ease the tension.