My Baclofen Experience

[moglor]

My Baclofen Experience

Interesting things to report. After having been AF for about 28 days and having titrated down to around 75-100mg/day, I decided to do some more self-experimentation. I went out with some business associates and ordered a beer. I'd like to say I left it at that, but that is not what happened. As is the pattern, one beer became 2 became 6, and true to the pattern, I stopped at the liquor store on the way home and bought more, and drank another few, to end the night at 10 total.

I felt quite ill the next day, and my diet and exercise routine has suffered. A few days later, a friend asked me over for a BBQ, which I did. Again, 1 beer became 8. A couple days later, I drank the rest of the stuff I'd bought a week or so earlier, bringing me back, to some extent, to square one.

I'm not disappointed in myself. For a moment, I thought maybe I should be, but I've had 36 years of self-flagellation, and I see no real need to continue.

Here's what I've learned from this:

1: Baclofen isn't a cure. The underlying issue, the underlying mania that drives 1 beer to become 10 does not magically disappear. What disappears is the overwhelming drive to seek out alcohol. If you consciously override the drug and say "Self: I will now drink," then the addictive behavior returns. Baclofen still does help, though, keeping 10 from becoming 30.

2: Quitting drinking doesn't change your life. It doesn't do shit for your life. Nobody looks at you differently, nobody behaves differently toward you. Your reactions to people and situations really don't change all that much. What changes is your perception of these events, and your ability to control your own response.

3: I don't have a "moderation" option. It's either full drunk or full abstinence for me. I had truly hoped that I'd be able to re-integrate alcohol after breaking the addictive cycle, but I see now that this is not going to be possible.

With respect to #3, this is going to be difficult for me to internalize. I'd always thought that my problems were just chemical, but after 25 clear days, I've seen what's below the surface: a personality that I've been drinking into submission for 20 years, and I'm not sure what to think about it.

-John Moglor

[Lo0p]

My Baclofen Experience

I'm going to disagree on all three points. At the same time though I have to empathize with you on all of them because I went through exactly the same thing.

If you look at my graph you'll see that I did a fair bit of drinking after baclofen (and TSM) had taken me out of hell. What the graph doesn't show is the last 5 months. I stopped keeping accurate track of my consumption because I literally almost stopped drinking.

Before I could take a drink and it could turn into six or eight (or whatever) easily. Now, every once in a while (a great while, like once a month) I'll think about having a cold beer and I actually crave it. But it's different, way different. I'll only crave a really good beer like a Blue Moon with a slice of orange on a really hot day, when we are having a barbecue or something.

I might even chug it, and maybe even another one. But before I know it six hours will have gone by. Or I'll wake up the next morning and go "oh sh$t dude, how much did you drink last night?" And then "oh...(chuckle) that's right, you had one beer and a sip of another one but then gave it away." :H

What has changed? I'm not sure. More time has passed and I'm continuing to heal, sure. I also practice TSM and every time I do drink I take a naltrexone first. And then finally, I did raise my dose for a day or two after I drank, almost just out of fear.

I haven't really given this post the time it deserves, but at least I'm going to click the button this time!! Yeah!! I've got a growing directory of unfinished MWO posts. :H

[PhoenixRising]

My Baclofen Experience

Wow, Moglor. Thanks for your very insightful post. I have thought about maybe 6 months down the road of trying exactly this. What I am afraid of is that if I feel the buzz, I would be off and running. As you were. (But you stopped at 10 - were you still conscious? I would be passed out at 10).

So now after a couple days of indulgence, do you feel the Beast is back in control or are you confident that you can get back on track? I am afraid that 2-3 days of drinking and I'd be totally derailed. I hope that is not that case with you.

-P.

[Light Of Daz]

My Baclofen Experience

Thanks moglor for that insightful post... this part resonated with me the most:

moglor;930481 wrote: 1: Baclofen isn't a cure. The underlying issue, the underlying mania that drives 1 beer to become 10 does not magically disappear. What disappears is the overwhelming drive to seek out alcohol. If you consciously override the drug and say "Self: I will now drink," then the addictive behavior returns. Baclofen still does help, though, keeping 10 from becoming 30.

In all honesty, when I experienced the results of craving suppression/elimination/whatever you want to call it, I put Baclofen to the test, too. I thought I could drink like a normal person again, and did drink on a couple of occasions. While I didn't drink nearly as much as normal, I saw that once I started, I could tell the addiction could easily win out. I did not beat myself up for it, and instead, have now focused on just how good life is without alcohol, and how easy it is for me to say "No" to drinking and really, truly mean it.

I fall under the abstinence group, and I'm happy with that. And I'll have to say my experience is different than yours, though, in that quitting drinking HAS changed my life. I engage in activities more, find joy in doing things, and feel a sense of fulfillment that I haven't had practically ever. When I drank so much, I avoided life... now I participate in it much more than ever.

Great post... thanks for putting your honesty out there. :thumbs:

[Pride before Fall]

My Baclofen Experience

I think I may have over-sold my sober lifestyle to myself- how everything would be different and better, but in reality, it's all just the same, minus the drinking. >>

The thing is, it's only minus the drinking that you can make any of the other stuff--boredom, anxiety, loneliness--better. That exhilaration thing is false; just set up a camera at one of the BBQs and let it run while the "hail fellow well met" thing plays out. Cringe-worthy. AL just blots out demons that are still there, only worse, in the morning. You wake up more bored, more anxious, more lonely, but it's because of alcohol, not the lack of it.

Thanks for sharing your trials and errors and especially your resolve, Mog.

Pride

[Cinders]

My Baclofen Experience

It is a conundrum. We strive so hard to get sober because we absolutely know without a doubt that if we stay drunk, we will never be happy. That is the truth.

However, getting sober does not guarantee happiness. It guarantees we have the option to get there.

For some, it just happens. They get sober and life gets better.

For some of us, it doesn't. We drank for a reason. Drinking worked for a while until we "crossed that line," whatever that line is.

Now, we don't have the option of drinking to deal with those reasons anymore, we have to find better and healthier alternatives to deal with what led us to drink to begin with.

I won't get into the AF/MOD debate. For those who want to and are able to moderate, go for it!! For those who can't, don't drink.

Thank G-d I found Baclofen. It has given me strength to do something I could not do on my own. No, it is not my higher power but perhaps my higher power sent it to me? I have no idea.

I am NOT looking this gift horse in the mouth.

I am searching about for lifestyle changes that help me deal with my reasons for drinking. And, no, I didn't have a horrible childhood. I had and still have a wonderful and caring family.

I was talking to a friend the other day and she said, "They just have no idea about the brain chemistries of all the people in the world. We are all so different."

I do know I suffer incredible anxiety. I have dealt with that for years with food and alcohol.

I got "rid" of the food addiction with my gastric-bypass, hah, and my alcoholism flourished.

Baclofen is giving me a chance to find a way out of whatever I am dealing with in terms of alcohol.

It is not dealing with the root cause, be it chemical, environmental or whatever.

I still have work to do but at least I am capable of doing the work now.

Cindi

[moglor]

My Baclofen Experience

Thanks for all the great replies, folks. Cinders, you really nailed it. "Getting sober does not guarantee happiness. It guarantees we have the option to get there."

This is going to be a long post, y'all. Fair warning.

Phoenix: Even after a month of being AF, 10 beers is still nothing to me. I didn't pound them all at once anyhow, it was over an afternoon/evening. :-) And, I did manage to stop - in times past, I would have just gone out to the liquor store and bought more, and capped the night off at 14, 17, 20, whatever it took until I dropped.

The question about whether or not this derailed me is a good one. I would say that yes, in some respects, it has. Part of the problem, I think, is that I had a bit of an Icarus complex, and when the high of self improvement finally wore off, my wings melted and I ended up crashing into a beer vat. (Cue Strangebrew quotes here.) As I look back on it, I was getting cocky with my newfound sobriety. Cocky, arrogant, judgmental, in both my own self-examination and in dealing with the world around me.

I'm going to step back here and talk a little bit about mania, and digress into my past.

Nearly 15 years ago, I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder. I was desperately unhappy in my job, I was buried under a mountain of debt, I was drinking 18-24 beers a day, often more, much more. The drinking made my job worse, it made my mood worse, it made my debt worse (I spent freely while drunk) and I alienated many of my friends. I had gained so much weight that dating wasn't an option, and my loneliness and self-pity consumed me.

I never told anyone about how far I'd sunk. My parents were concerned about my weight gain, but I never discussed it with them. My job was intolerable. My relationships with my closest friends were strained to the breaking point; I would get so drunk that I would berate them for the ways I perceived them to have wronged me.

I spent an entire drunken evening with a loaded 9mm, making the case for or against.

About a week later, I had a prescription for Wellbutrin. I told my doctor a little bit about what had happened, but I left out the gun, and I halved the amount I was drinking. I didn't want to get committed to an institution as a danger to self and others, you see. I took the Wellbutrin, and like baclofen, I got off to a good start. I kicked the booze, started eating right, went to the gym, lost 10 lbs.

Sounds familiar, yes?

There wasn't any trigger, or "turning point." One day, I was just too tired to go to the gym. Another day, I just had to sleep in a little longer. I was sick to death of salad, so I ate a cheeseburger. I went to bed early, slept in late. 10 hours of sleep, and I was still tired. In a couple months, I'd given up on the Wellbutrin, the gym, the diet, and was back to drinking 6-10 beers every day.

The crippling depression returned, the stress and hatred of my job, the debt loomed over me like a black cloud. This time, instead of playing russian roulette, I quit my job, which I had identified as the source of the despair. I had no money, no real job prospects. I moved into a trailer park, and did contracting work, enough to pay the trailer rent, pay my minimum balances, and of course to buy alcohol, which I did in staggering quantities.

I did not communicate much with my parents much during this period. I am sure they were very worried. I told them I was contracting, and told them that I was living in the trailer to save money for a house.

I did this for about a year, until I ran out of contracts, and ran out of money. I was paying my rent with credit card cash advance checks. I finally started applying for blue collar work, very little of which I was qualified for. One of my best friends, who had never managed to incur my alcoholic wrath, got me an interview for a job doing tool repair for minimum wage. On the same day, I got an email from a previous collegue about another opportunity, for which I applied.

A week later, the Towers fell, and I began a new job that was not tool repair. I was paid reasonably well, and I did work that really mattered. I was happy for a time, but the depression returned.

At this point, I don't think I need to continue with the broken record story, which is probably the same as everyone else's here. The point of this digression was to talk about the cyclical nature of my depression, medication, elevation and failure, which I now recognize as bipolar disorder.

So let's bring this thing home, shall we? When I read Ameisen's book, back in May, I was in the deepest part of a depressive episode. I ordered and went on baclofen, and succeeded! But time marches on, and even without alcohol, another depressive episode has set in, and I'm sleeping too much, eating poorly, avoiding the gym, caving into impulses to "try" drinking to see what happens. My first thought is that it's all just been the usual ups and downs, and the baclofen project has been another in the long list of failures.

Here's the difference, this time. I'm not back to 12 beers/night. I'm not suicidal. I'm not neglecting my job, or my personal life. I'm still going to the gym, although with reduced frequency. I'm feeling better every day, and I can feel that this episode is nearly done, after a couple weeks, instead of months or years.

So, yes, Phoenix, I was derailed, and it led to some pretty intense self-scrutiny, but I'm confident I can regain my footing.

Daz, I am glad you are engaging in life! I perhaps misspoke when I said it hasn't changed anything for me. See below:

Pride: You're right. This is hard to put into words; alcohol has been so integral to my life and my lifestyle for so long, that I have a hard time perceiving the world around me when sober. What I really mean to say is that sobriety has not changed how I *feel* about life, but has opened the doors to a lot of opportunities that were previous closed to me.

Lo0p, I wondered about the last few months of your graph. I have been reading about TSM. I will look into adding naltrexone to my toolkit.

Thank you, all, for your continued support. I cannot even describe how much it means to me.

-John

[Light Of Daz]

My Baclofen Experience

John,

Wow, that was a powerful read. Excellently written and it really spoke to me, so thank you. I'm happy you're still here and that you feel near the end of this latest episode.

Depression has always been in my background, too, so I'm wondering if you have gone back to your doctor to try something besides Wellbutrin? I'm currently on Zoloft and have been through a lot of similar ones to find what works for me (have tried Paxil, Prozac, Wellbutrin & Remeron). And I believe there are specific meds for the bipolar aspect.

But again, my point in posting is this... I'm just so impressed with how you put all that out there... it really struck a cord in me and I thank you. You are committed to finding the solution for you. Keep goin'!

Daz

[Seethepony]

My Baclofen Experience

Terrific posts, Moglor, very much appreciated. I'm new to this forum, and obviously I drink far too much for my own good, or I wouldn't be here. I will be joining you on planet Baclofen as soon as the pills arrive, some time next week. Thanks for the very detailed and often amusing warnings about the side effects. Sounds quite terrifying - especially the hallucinations - but I suppose nothing is quite as terrifying as the prospect of living an eternal hangover, punctuated by blackouts.

Good luck with everything, Moglor, and I look forward to seeing more of your beautifully written posts.

[havefaith]

My Baclofen Experience

Hi everybody,

I have a quick question?
I've been taking Topomax for 25 days now( works great for cravings,AF the whole time), but does nothing for my anxiety levels!
I have had anxiety since I was in 3rd grade, and I just turned 40.( I guess thats why I liked drinking so much, worked wonders on my nerves!)
So here is my question- I will be seeing the Doc this coming week. Has anyone taken Topamax & Baclofen? What were the results?
I am on 75mg of Topamax a day & that seems to be just fine.
Any advise would be great!

[moglor]

My Baclofen Experience

Havefaith: Baclofen has been helpful for my anxiety, but does not completely eliminate it. Lots of people are doing various combinations of Topa, Bac, Campral and Naltrexone. Hopefully your visit to the doc went well!

Followup to my last post - The depressive episode did diminish quickly, and I got back to a better diet and to the gym, but I still have some lingering symptoms; My "joie de vivre" is nonexistent. It's hard to find pleasure or enjoyment in anything, and I feel like I'm just "going through the motions" without any long term goals in life. I'm tired and bored a lot, and it's hard to get out of bed with zero motivation.

I plan to visit my own doctor soon for a round of blood work, and I will probably look at going on antidepressants again. I suspect they will be more efficacious when not competing with alcohol.. After reading another post here about combining ADs and Baclofen, I'm a little concerned that the ADs will counteract the bac and I'll go off the rails (on the crazy train.) I'm using a 100mg/day "maintenance" dose, but I've really wanted to get back down to 50. I'm truly hoping that managing the depression, along with diet and exercise, will give me the edge to taper off the bac.

My main debate is whether or not to tell my doctor about the baclofen. I don't think there's anything to lose by doing so, but I'm not sure there's anything to gain either.

[Light Of Daz]

My Baclofen Experience

moglor;940254 wrote: ... After reading another post here about combining ADs and Baclofen, I'm a little concerned that the ADs will counteract the bac and I'll go off the rails (on the crazy train.)...

Hi moglor... glad to hear your latest depressive episode has lifted a bit.

I'm on 75mg of Zoloft currently, and have been for some time. As someone who has stupidly stopped my ADs in the past, then went back on them, I can tell you that Bac does not diminish the effectiveness of the Zoloft for me.

I would encourage you to discuss your Bac w/your doctor, but if you don't, be sure to check any interactions online with whatever AD they put you on. I read somewhere about the non-SSRI ADs having some kind of interaction with something else (can't remember if it is Bac or not).

Daz

[Lo0p]

My Baclofen Experience

Are you still practicing TSM?

I make double sure not to have gym days within a couple days of nal/al'ing because I want that endorphin rush from the gym for sure.

[moglor]

My Baclofen Experience

Lo0p;940645 wrote: I make double sure not to have gym days within a couple days of nal/al'ing because I want that endorphin rush from the gym for sure.

Wow, I hadn't even considered that. I am not presently using Naltrexone, but I was considering it. I go to the gym often, so this may not work well for me. Even with baclofen I don't get that huge endorphin rush like I once did, but that may also be related to depression. I'm going to try switching to a more sinclair-like approach to baclofen: Instead of evenly spacing my doses, I'm going to try a 25mg dose in the morning and a 50mg dose right before I leave work, since that is my biggest trigger time.

[moglor]

My Baclofen Experience

Hi All,

I'm still here!

In my last post, I mentioned trying to switch to a more sinclair-like method for bac, but it didn't really work. I feel kind of strange all day if I miss my morning dose, and then hitting myself with 50mg at once in the afternoon pretty much just makes me fall asleep. I hovered around 75/50 mg for the past couple weeks, but found myself drinking more often, and drifting back into depression and sloth, so I am going back to 100mg/day.

I did notice that even when drinking, I don't really like it much anymore; it's more habitual than enjoyable at this point, and it makes me feel kind of crummy. Even drinking small amounts leads to surprisingly bad hangovers.

I still need to see my doctor, but I've been putting it off, in part due to the aforementioned depression and sloth, and I still can't decide if I want to bring up the baclofen or not.

-Moglor