My Baclofen Experience

[RudyB]

My Baclofen Experience

john! so much to say here! ... i took notes.

first of all, seems you have a challenge w empirical evidence. you are suspicious of it re: supplements (so glad you'll get that book!), and you don't buy it w regard to your own impressive assets. what's that about? seems like a classic case of some kind of psychological pathology, in particular in the second case of not believing how great you are, in spite of tons of evidence to the contrary. in the first case, brings to mind how our society relies on science to a fault, in my humble opinion.

i would recommend therapy for sure. the trick is finding someone good. i've been to various and sundry therapists in my life, and the majority were mediocre in helping me. (i'll never ever forget the head of the therapy dept at my very expensive private college who fell asleep on me! at the time, i couldn't even tell him why i didn't want to talk anymore. i think nowadays i could say: "cause you fall asleep during my narratives!") i don't want a pat on my back (am considering going back to therapy myself), but nor do i want someone to aske me (was it redhead's expereince she described?) "do you really want to spend your life drinking?" dig around for someone good. i am sure you can find someone, though i don't know where you live, and finding someone good can have a lot to do with your luck and where you live.

you say that you don't think you do anything well enough. what were your parents like? that might provide some valuable insight, though i'm sure you've thougth of that. and your elementary experiences being bullied but maybe you never got over but many others have: genetics? why? the eternal question! surely a combination of factors contribute to the answer. i don't think it's helpful to bang ourselves for not flourishing under circumstances from which others have flown free. i think it's helpful to dig into ourselves (w a good therapist, perhaps) and tease out some answers. and do whatever we can to support our own healing. congrats, for example, on 4 days af! that's more than i can say.

as you know, being af will help you tremendously. and yes, third time's a charm.

how did your authorities indicate that you weren't living up to your potential? how could they complain that you were reading all the time? who were these authorities?

...makes me think of the assistant principal (ap) at the school where i teach. he recently administered a state test. the students filed into the cafeteria, took a place at the tables, and waited for instruction. of course they were chatty and noisy. they're 14! he started SCREAMING at them (and soon lost his voice): "be quiet! i don't like to do this! this is a state test!". it was to me a clear example of an authority losing his shit. there was a student in that room who was crying because she didn't like to be yelled at. it felt bad. and i was appalled that a person of such *stature* behaved in such a way. he could've started off on a positive note (guess he took lessons from NE's yoga teacher!).

anywhoo, i'm wondering who these authorities were? how did they gain such an influence on your life? did they [I]earn[I] that? maybe if you delve into therapy you can suss some of this shit out, though it's one thing to understand it intellectually, another entirely to change habits of thought and behavior that might've stemmed from the experiences. well, you've got the smarts to make those changes if you choose to. just might take some work. and some bac.

i relate to the early habits thing. i was pretty self-secure in middle school; i started drinking and smoking weed by *choice*. it wasn't due to any need to fit in, but it definitely, i think, formed some early brain wiring that fucked me up. not good. but reparable.

and, i repeat myself here, i love the question that you ask, to the effect of: 'why'd i get this affliction while others from same circumstances escaped it?'. (do i need that period???) i don't have an answer, except that we are indiviuals, and we each have a particular chemistry, genetic structure, and familial history. of course some of us would slide out of it, while others of us would get stuck in the muck.

mog, you won't always be a trainwreck. you're obviously doing the work, and that stands for a lot. you have the ingredients for an amazing person. as Ne suggested (from an aa reference of some sort), look for the cracks in the crud. find those moments of peace. you have a brilliant shine of light trying to peek through (sorry to be corny here), so LET IT!

thanks for yet another thoughtful post that inspires response. you are beautiful!
xoxo rudyb

[RudyB]

My Baclofen Experience

ps i think bleep's advice is brilliant. read your posts as if they were from another person. can't you see how incredible you are??!!

[RudyB]

My Baclofen Experience

pps, mog: love yourself!

[redhead77]

My Baclofen Experience

moglor;1121757 wrote: You know, I have never been a believer in the whole supplement thing. I have a background in biology, and most of the evidence I see in these tends to run contrary to my knowledge of human physiology. However, since I have been studying and experimenting on myself with various dietary changes, I think there may be more to this than I originally thought. I'm also willing to try damn near anything! I will buy that book and let you know what I think.



I agree that it's some kind of imbalance, whether chemical or psychological, I don't know. I suffered a lot of bullying in elementary school due to the fact that I was more interested in reading, computers and technology than basketball. I lived with constant reminders of the fact that I was a disappointment to all the authority figures in my life because I "wasn't living up to my potential." Did this shape my current self-image? Undoubtedly.

When I started drinking and taking drugs in high school, it was in large part in order to fit in with a group of friends. Starting the trend of self-medication at such an early age certainly contributed to reinforcing the fact that I can't feel good about myself without heavy doses of mind-altering chemicals.

All that being said, I truly do not believe that my childhood and high school experiences greatly differ from most, or that everyone with drug and alcohol dependency or depression had such experiences. Why did I end up with this condition when others seem to have moved past it? Who knows. Genetics? I went to therapy when I was 12, but it was not useful. I am still debating therapy again to try and address the root causes of my self hatred. I'm pretty sure I know what they are, but I am not sure what to do about it.

In terms of the bald/fat thing, I don't really care so much about being balding. I accept that there is little I can do about that. Being fat, though, really bothers me, as it was of my own making, and I *can* do something about that. I use being fat and balding as a generic excuse for why women don't like me. In reality, I believe I simply sabotage myself at every turn because I can't accept that I am worthy of anyone's affections. How can I possible allow someone to get close to me when I'm such a trainwreck? Of course, like I'm about to point out to bleep, nobody actually knows how big a trainwreck I really am.



Oh, trust me, I see it. In pretty much every walk of life, I do things: work, music, writing, exercise, cooking, gaming. I actually *dislike* doing these things because I never feel like I can do them well enough. I never see any improvement, but like you said, everyone around me comments on my various "talents": how good I am at my job, how good my music sounds, how well I write, how good my cooking is, how good I am at various games..

So you see, I have all this empirical evidence that I am not actually as bad as I know I am, but I still feel like I'm living a lie; That nobody knows how truly bad I am at all these things.

It's a real pickle, and the antidepressants only marginally work to keep it all from being too much to bear.

In other news, I'm on day 4 AF. I kicked it up to 250mg, and I'm feeling pretty spaced out, but otherwise OK.

-John

Congrats on your 4 days. John, I have been where you are, and still struggle with myself at times. I have to wonder if you had a "normal" childhood? I mean one without substance abuse or other abuse clouding it. I know it's personal, and I'm not looking for specifics. I only ask because you remind me of a person who has experienced some of these things. I can only say this, because I have a personal undertanding of it. It tends to stay with you, and you carry it into adulthood. The self esteem problems can be the worst of it. They are caused by that feeling that you are never quite like anyone else. It's like you carry this deep dark secret, one that fundamentally makes you different. One that makes you not as good as the "normal" people. No matter what you accomplish; an education, a good job, empathy for others, musical talents, great writing skills, cooking abilities, a buff or svelte body, great looks or beauty, motherhood or fatherhood, the feeling never goes away. You still FEEL not good enough.

I have had probably a hundred hours of therapy for these problems. The psychologist I finally learned to trust and open up to, told me some of the trauma I've been through is bad. He told me he had to break hipa and talk to his wife (who is a Phd psychologist too). He had to decompress. He said therapists, if they hear really traumatic stories, sometimes experience a form of post traumatic stress syndrome. He felt he was, and he said I have for much of my life. I think this is TMI, but I want to reach out to you. I want you to understand, you are not the only person in the world who feels, or in my case (it's still a work in progress), felt like this.

I'm not sure that all the hours of therapy helped my drinking. Or did they? They made me do something about it sooner than most. I've become very self aware. What they surely did, is help me come to terms with some of my past. I'm beginning to love myself...accept myself. My childhood, my past, is not my fault. It helps me to not need booze, to numb the feelings.

I guess I'm wondering if this is the case for you? I'm not sure if I read in your thread earlier, that you did have a normal childhood. Even if you didn't experience the worst of abuse, often there is a strong root cause to having a negative self image. A severly negative one. Have you explored this? Would you be opposed to therapy for this?

[moglor]

My Baclofen Experience

RudyB;1121817 wrote: first of all, seems you have a challenge w empirical evidence. you are suspicious of it re: supplements (so glad you'll get that book!), and you don't buy it w regard to your own impressive assets. what's that about?

It's not that I have a challenge with empirical evidence. Quite the contrary. Supplementation is a grey area. I really don't want to turn this into a pro/con discussion of supplements, but there is not much science and a lot of snake oil when it comes to their efficacy, so I remain skeptical. On the flip side, lots of supplements absolutely have pharmacological effects, and can be good, but can also be downright toxic. I maintain an open mind, though, and a healthy dose of experimentalism.

RudyB;1121817 wrote:
what were your parents like?

My parents love me very much, but they, and my teachers, were the main contributors to the "you're not living up to your potential" thing. This manifested mainly in parents/teachers being constantly disappointed/angry at me for doing poorly on random assignments in school. I was by and large a straight-A student (which led to more bullying) but the punishments for less-than-A work were severe: groundings, removal of privileges, removal of items (computer, nintendo,) etc. It got to the point where I'd do just about anything to hide any bad grades, to the point of forging signatures on progress reports, modifying report cards, lying, etc. I developed into a shockingly competent forger at a very early age, although I never cheated.

I kept a diary for about a week when I was 11 or 12, and one of the things I wrote in it was "I have so many lies, I need to write them down to keep track of them all."

Incidentally, this hasn't followed me in later life. Once I hit my early 20s and was fully entrenched in my alcoholism and depression, I gave up trying to cover up mistakes. It was too much to handle when my life was falling apart.

My position on therapy is that the main point of a therapist is to draw the patient out into talking about why they feel the way they feel. In that regard, posting here IS therapy. I've never told anyone in my entire life, even my closest friends, even 5% of the stuff that I've posted here. I can't imagine that anyone would be surprised though. The real problem is that there's nothing anyone can do to change how I feel inside, so I am not sure what the benefit of therapy would be, other than to embarrass me in a non-anonymous setting.

RudyB wrote: i relate to the early habits thing. i was pretty self-secure in middle school; i started drinking and smoking weed by *choice*. it wasn't due to any need to fit in, but it definitely, i think, formed some early brain wiring that fucked me up. not good. but reparable.

Well, I started by choice too. The choice was to do it and the reason was to fit in better. Maybe that's not really a choice, since it was basically under (self) duress. I don't regret the drugs for a second, though. Pot and LSD, drug culture, goth culture, and being non-mainstream really opened my mind to different lifestyles, different ways of thinking, and helped me meet a lot of really interesting people. It helped me learn how to deal with situations that most people would flip out about. It shaped the good parts of me into the person I am today, and I'd never trade it. The alcohol, though, I could have done without.

I really wish I could believe that I won't always be a trainwreck. Even at 6 months AF I was still a psychological trainwreck, depressed and unhappy all the time, and it led me back into alcohol. I honestly don't know what other changes I can make to prevent this from happening again, other than keeping a higher dose of bac for a longer time, or switching to a seriously mind-numbing antidepressant. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm hitting the gym with renewed fervor, going from one or two days a week to 5 days, and that's been a good boost to my overall self-confidence. Who knows, maybe that's the key?

Hopefully without alcohol and with a clearer head, I can start to do more research into how to address my underlying psychological problems, with or without a therapist.

John

[moglor]

My Baclofen Experience

redhead77;1121837 wrote: He said therapists, if they hear really traumatic stories, sometimes experience a form of post traumatic stress syndrome.
...
I guess I'm wondering if this is the case for you? I'm not sure if I read in your thread earlier, that you did have a normal childhood. Even if you didn't experience the worst of abuse, often there is a strong root cause to having a negative self image. A severly negative one. Have you explored this? Would you be opposed to therapy for this?

Your post came in as I was writing the other one. I think I touched on a couple of these points, but to clarify:

I think my childhood was normal in some ways, and very abnormal in others. I was adopted as an infant, and I have known all my life that I was adopted. I never consider this one way or the other, and I've never felt it had an impact on me, but I suppose it's possible it has. I only bring it up because it's a data point. I got a computer very young, at the dawn of the personal computer age, so I was the only kid in school who had one.

I was bullied more than anyone I know in grade school, plenty of physical abuse, but also psychological abuse which went way beyond the usual "make fun of the nerd" crap. I don't think I was any more strange than anyone else, but the trifecta of being smart, physically awkward (non-athletic), and heavily interested in computers really set me up for some serious punishment. Coupled with the constant feeling like I was disappointing my parents and my teachers, yeah, I can make the case for PTSD. I've done a little research into it, but nothing significant.

I am not opposed to therapy, but as I mentioned in my previous post, I think it can help to understand causality, but doesn't have a lot to offer for cure.

John

[moglor]

My Baclofen Experience

@Rudy: I read Amazon.com: The Mood Cure: The 4-Step Program to Take Charge of Your Emotions--Today (9780142003640): Julia Ross: Books (yay Kindle instant gratification!) as well as some documents RedThread sent me in a similar vein. I'd already known about 5-HTP from her info, so it was nice to see it corroborated in another source.

I very much identify with false moods #1, #2 and #4. Interestingly, I have none of the GABA related "false moods," possibly because of baclofen's effect on modulating GABA?

I also really like the book because it speaks specifically about the problems created by high sugar/high carb junk diets. I had already known about this from my own research, and from corollary research into CrossFit and Paleo/Low Carb; Robb Wolf has done a lot of research and written some interesting papers on the matter.

I think a lot of the material is heavily simplified from a neurobiology perspective, but nothing jumped out at me as being patently untrue, so I'm going to give some of it a try, specifically 5-HTP and DLPA. My only significant concern is that 5-HTP can cause or make worse hypertension, so I will need to keep an eye on my blood pressure, which is already high (148/85). I'm starting light on 5-HTP and will monitor effects, as I don't want to have any strange reactions, and I want to be able to gauge effectiveness.

As I posted in another thread, I'm now at:

225mg/day Baclofen
150mg/day Bupropion
5g/day L-Glutamine
100mg/day 5-HTP

I have felt a little nauseated, bloated, and over-tired all day, which was an issue I had with the L-Glut before (while I was drinking,) but I'll give it a few days of sober testing before I cut it back out if this feeling doesn't go away.

No real urges to drink. Feeling fairly hopeful at the moment, maybe the 5-HTP working? I'm trying to maintain skepticism to avoid placebo effect, but I don't want to go so far as I ignore actual effects. I added a bunch of probiotics to my diet too to try and help with my ongoing gut problems.

Got a lot on my mind that I want to post right now, but I'll wrap this up for now.

Thank you all so much for listening, and caring! It means more than I can really say.

John

[RudyB]

My Baclofen Experience

john! this is great. i'm thrilled that you looked into that book. i think i mentioned that i haven't read it, though i will ('the diet cure' was compelling for me). i'll be curious to hear what you ultimately find from it all.

as i have written elsewhere, i'm a little hung up on my ex bf at the moment. he never wanted to have sex w me. we're still friends. i sent him 'the mood cure' and am curious to see if he has any feedback, tho i certainly don't expect him to suddenly change to suit my wishes! previous wishes, that is.

probiotics are a great idea. have you tried kombucha? it's great if you aren't concerned about a very small percentage of alcohol content. it is full of probiotics and a delightful drink, especially if you like a kinda vinagery taste. which i do. call me weird. and then there's uncooked sauerkraut (lacto-fermented). don't mean to sound like a pusher here, but see sally fallon for more on this kinda stuff.

i'd love to hear about any toxcicity stuff that might be pertinitent to supplements. not to make you my dr or anything, but i typically take vit d, omegas (pharma grade), milk thistle. can't think of what else.

i'm glad your folks were loving, but i gotta say, they held high standards! i'm fortunate my grades were good and my parents didn't demand that i got a's. we had u.s. captials quizzes at the dinner table, though, and very demanding intellecutal conversations. my dad was very proud when i was taking notes the other day as he counseled me on my divorce. (he was a judge, and gave me excellent advice, btw.) anywhoo, i'm feeling fortunate that there wasn't an over-emphasis on grades, as that would've sucked. my heart goes out to you. jeez.

i'll have to read that book, as i said. and look into this 5 htp.

i, too, have been feeling bloated and it doesn't jibe well with my self image. it's all compounded by my inability to exercise due to my injured foot. argh. but it's temporary. at least i'm not dead.

thanks for posting mog. good to hear from you.
xo rudy

[moglor]

My Baclofen Experience

I tried, and like, Kombucha, although it's extremely expensive. I found some really good ginger flavored stuff, but it's fairly high in carbs. I also love sauerkraut, there's a couple brands here that have only "cabbage" and "salt" as the ingredients. I really want to try making my own though.

I'll post some more info later on supplements.

That's weird about your ex. I can certainly see how that would give you cause for concern, but whatever the problem was, it was on him, not on you. He's your ex for a reason, right? What happened to your foot?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

My Baclofen Experience

hmmmm.

I dunno, Mog. I'm the product of therapy and years of navel-gazing. When I very recently cleaned out my bookcases, I threw away 3 grocery bags full of self-help novels. I call them novels because no one I know has ever been able to do what they suggest I do in order to get and stay well. I threw them away because I didn't want some other schmo to get sucked in and feel terrible about themselves for not becoming a Lama in 300 pages.

What I take away from it, what I learned most resoundingly, is that it is a choice. For me, anyway. I don't really have any urges to make amends, or to right wrongs, or to make lists of my wrongdoings at the end of the day.
I have some intuition that tells me I need a guide, a mentor, to help with that stuff. But that introspection is my mental health enemy.
When those niggling thoughts worm their way in, I have a choice about whether or not to give them space. I made a lot of stupid or hurtful decisions drunk or reacting from the place where I was insecure because I was a drunk. Or because I was scared and ashamed.
I'm not a drunk anymore, so I don't have to make those decisions anymore. That's enough for me, at the moment.
Just my 0.02.
xo, mog.
Ne

[RudyB]

My Baclofen Experience

mog, sauerkraut is a breeze to make. nourishing traditions by sally fallon is a great resource for this kinda stuff. i even made kombucha for a while, and it was usually quite good. that book is both a recipe book and full of information about nutrition based largely on the research of dr weston price. fascinating stuff.

i hurt my foot on the trapeze, which i did for the first time in years a few weeks ago. slapped the top of my foot on the pedestal board and it is still not right. i won't be flying again any time soon, nor will i be running. so i think i'll try rowing.

yeah, my ex. what a mess. like i've said, we're cordial with each other. it's now in the judge's and lawyers' hands, and we carry on as if nothing is going on other than our son, his tick bite (EEEK!), and other everyday things. thank god for this. there's something good about his thinking he's always right. he's just resting on his laurels, assuming the judge will award him tons of money, and i'm happy with his happiness in his confidence. suits me fine. now he just needs to stop harassing on little things. and bit by bit, i think he's figuring out that i'm a great mom and he should just shut up. though i'm sure he'll never change much. so my expectations for a total conversion are nil.

anyway, gotta run. plants need to go into the garden.

[moglor]

My Baclofen Experience

So this is day 2 of 5-HTP and L-Glut. Stomach still feels a little weird. I have absolutely noticed an effect from the 5-HTP. I did not know it was possible to be even more 'bacced-out' but after 300mg of 5-HTP over the course of the day, I have all the physical sensations as though I just ripped a massive bong hit. Mentally, I feel pretty slow, but that could be because I'm tired.

Emotionally, I feel very bland, almost numb. It struck me earlier when someone did something to irritate me, and I spent about 5 minutes trying to figure out if I should get mad or not. In the end, I decided it wasn't worth the effort.

Since it's a holiday here, I haven't been doing much of anything other than housework, so I'll be interested to see how this progresses at work tomorrow when my mind is engaged (if I can manage to engage it.)

Rudy, trapeze... I am beyond impressed. I know a couple gymnasts, but I have never met anyone who has actually rode (flown? used?) a trapeze. Someone else (Murph?) was probably right. Maybe he IS gay... Trapeze. Dang. I would SO use that as a pickup line. "Hey, you ever flown on a trapeze before? *wink wink nudge nudge*" I almost want to say "pics or it didn't happen," but that would be rude. :-)

[moglor]

My Baclofen Experience

I dropped the L-Glut. It wasn't doing anything for sugar cravings, in fact I started dumping stevia packets into my tea. My stomach was decidedly queasy after taking it, and it was difficult to eat in the morning pre-workout due to the stomach issues. It knocked me out of ketosis for my low carb diet, and severely impaired my mental faculties. I also gained like 5 pounds of bloat while taking it. I haven't seen anyone else with these kinds of side effects, so it's possible that it's an allergy to a binder in the powder form, or just an atypical reaction. I'm not sensitive to MSG or other glutamates, but my experiences do have some similarities to MSG reactions.

I feel MUCH better today without it, and I can feel the effect of the 5-HTP much more as well. Mood is definitely elevated, and that numb/bland feeling is gone. Interested to see if the bloat/weight gain goes away over the next couple days.

Also, today is 1 week AF. Feeling switchy.

[RudyB]

My Baclofen Experience

oh my god, mog, 1 wk af, that's great! good for you.

about the trapeze, you say 'fly'. yeah, pretty cool, but i can't prove it. the only photos i have are hard copy (i think), from when i did it years ago. i did once land a full-spread of photos in a local paper, but haven't managed to find that online, alas. if i do someday find any photos, i'll surely pm you and tell you how to see them. (someone photographed me when i flew the other week, but for some reason i can't access them.) i know it sounds like rubbish, like i'm trying to brag, but that's not my style. anyway, i won't be flying anytime soon. as i said in an earlier post, can't do it right now. need to get a little more grounded so i don't kill myself. pun intended.

i think my ex does prefer men. i'm not just saying that to save face. you guys are right and i wish i trusted my instinct sooner, would've saved me months of heartache. still getting over it, but time heals an i'm on my way to forgetting all about him as a romantic hurt.

[moglor]

My Baclofen Experience

Quick followup on my thread here. Been doing very well lately, keeping at 225mg/day. Had one incident at the grocery store today. I had been very tired, and my lunchtime gym visit really took it out of me, much more so than usual. I drank way too much diet soda around 2:30pm, and was so wired I was shaking. When I got to the store to buy components for dinner, my "reptilian hindbrain" (courtesy: Rational Recovery) informed me that I was, in fact, required to purchase and drink 8 beers in order to spin down from my caffeine high.

I was able to identify this thought as coming from my addictive self. I rationally considered the deleterious effect it would have on my low carb diet, the horrendous hangover I would have, the lack of sleep I would have for my 8AM meeting tomorrow, and the fact that I wouldn't be able to go to the gym hungover. I processed this all, decided it wasn't worth it and moved on, and the "craving" went away.

Besides a couple moments like that, the cravings are virtually gone. I've since added 5-HTP, and it's so far been acting fairly strongly to ward off that ever-present depression that always brings failure. It makes me wonder if I'd benefit more from an SSRI over Wellbutrin, but between the 5-HTP and the Bupropion, my chemically enhanced self seems much more able to cope with day to day life and deal a little more appropriately with my own self-loathing.

Honestly, right now, I feel pretty good about myself.

It's still pretty early on, and this is probably in large part due to the first week AF honeymoon, but I'm optimistic. I need to go back and look at my old posts from my first AF period to see how my thoughts and feelings compare. This time around, I very much feel "different."

John