Is Baclofen a cure ?

[Otter]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

Yes it is no it isn't yes it is...

mario;915859 wrote: There is only a cure for alcoholism if the problems that are causing it in the first place are dealt with, IMO.

So, Jean Dausset who was awarded a Nobel Prize in Medicine and described Baclofen as a "cure for addiction" is wrong and you are right. Is that how it is?

And insulin is not a "cure" for diabetes because you have to take it every day. I think there is another site for this sort of discussion... oh no, it was a Monty Python sketch. No its not, yes it is.... What a waste of time.:H

[Otter]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

Semantic debate v. advance in medicine

The discussion of whether Baclofen is a cure or not depends obviously on how you define a cure so it is interesting from a semantic point of view but misses the real issue that Ameisen has advanced medicine by discovering the trigger to craving.

I am not so sure about the point made by Bill P. The conundrum of whether it helps people who are bipolar is circular. Many psychiatrists won't treat a patient's "underlying" issues if they are drinking and insist they stop drinking first, which they cannot. Doctors won't treat the alcoholism until the underlying psychiatric condtion is first addressed, and around and around we go.

Statistically about 60-80% of psychiatric patients have alcohol problems. Prolonged use of alcohol may cause bipolar. Apart from bipolar there is only one significant mental illness, schizophrenia and that is organic so has nothing to do with alcohol. Joan Larson treats bi-polar as a biproduct of alcohol consumption with doses of lithium orotate. Interestingly, Hydergine is recommended as a treatment for stroke. It is also recommended for Werner-Korsikoff sydrome. Both are brain cell death. What possible difference does it make how a brain cell died or why a part of the brain functions the wrong way? If the function is gone and there is a treatment for it then the cause of the problem is totally insignificant; except of course if you have some interest in labelling people so you can look down your nose at someone worse of than yourself.

Is this site only for well-educated alcoholics? Nice alcoholics only? What about the millions of people who have gone right off the rails and wound up in psych institutes or people of lower IQ's; people who don't have computers or who are past learning how to Google. Don't they count? We seem to be becoming very judgemental here.

[Fuel]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

Road to Recovery;917005 wrote: I tend to agree,
Why did I drink? It tasted good and I loved the feeling of being drunk! I didnt just drink because of problems, I drank to celebrate a good day at work, I drank because I had a bad day at work, I drank because some one I knew had a good day at work... Not because I wasnt cuddled enough as a child. I drank because I was became addicted. My Father is/was an alcoholic, I dont think that helped my chances...

I totaly agree Road.

[Fuel]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

Thanks for the kind response Brave. It sometimes takes some of us time to post as we're afraid of feeling hung out to dry or no-one will respond. In response, I don't think Bac in a cure and I truly don't believe alcohol is a disease. We sorta weren't born with it and if not exposed to Alcohol I don't see how it could ever start. There's no other disease that I know of that needs a external substance to fuel itself. Thanks again for the awesome post I was stoked to get it.
Roll on the day Brave, Roll on the day lol.

[Brave Hearted]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

Great post Bill thank you for that information I am a big thinker got lots to go on there ! Puts a lot of what I am experiencing on baclofen into perspective . It nice to know the science behind it . Although as I posted I feel that it is changing something more in my brain ( for the good) than just turning down my brains desire to drink, would be interested to know what you think why al now does not effect me in the same way ( I posted those close to me say my eyes do not now change after a couple of glasses of wine, which they did prior to bac ).

Otter I hear what you are saying . I feel very strongly that this site is an open forum for everybody and I find it quite upsetting that fuel commented that some people take time to post as they are afraid of being hung out to dry ! thats not the ethos of this site at all . Not much can be done for the people that dont have access to the site, but everybody whatever there circumstances should be made welcome.

Fuel, IMO post what ever you like as long as it not offensive as your thougths feelings and opinions are just as important and valid as everybody elses. My post are in no way as intellectual as some but I come on here to get the help and information I need and to hopefully offer the same to others ! We all add to this site in our own way which makes it the great place it is. But want to posse this question to you, if it something we are just born with ? is that not another way of defining a disease ????

Thank you for contributing to this post , its making very interesting reading !

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

I find the debate about alcoholism as illness fascinating. I have never been a normal drinker. Not ever. My husband, also an alcoholic, has a completely different history and relationship with alcohol. While I can't tell his story, I will say that after reading this post and talking to him some more about it, we are both really clear that my feelings are very different, particularly concerning craving and overwhelming desire. I think he looks forward to a drink, but doesn't plan life around it. Hmmmm. I don't get that.

Alcoholism runs rampant on both sides of my family. Not his, that we know of. His drinking was mostly social. Mine was pretty much always about the booze. To be clear, I'm not saying we don't both suffer from the effects of long term alcohol abuse; DWI, depression, and lots of other PhD diagnoses on my part. Frankly though, he's pretty damn mentally stable. And I'm not a lunatic. So comorbidity? Sure, but really it's just the damn booze IMO.
The semantic debate? I don't really care on a personal level. I just can't wait to be sober for a while. I have been treated for everything else, (ADD depression, blah blah) and I've never really been able to be sober. Even when I was! It was a fabrication! But I know enough now, have enough life experience, to know that I'm not mentally ill. I'm a drunk. It affects my brain/central nervous system/body in ways that boggle the mind.
So, Bill. I don't have a response re. Baclofen, but I do wonder if this site, as well as Bac and other tools can't help those diagnosed with serious mental illness unravel the mystery that leads to some sort of, well, life. Many of us have probably been diagnosed with all sorts of things in our search for a solution for the pain in our minds. And some of it might just be hoo-ey.
At the same time I agree with Mario, and others, that a solution to addiction often has to include some peace with the past. But that in no way (IMHO) means that Bac/MWO/AA etc can't help someone suffering with PTSD or bi-polarity. Nutrition is nutrition. Chemical is chemical. Whether or not I'm sick with something in addition to alcoholism. Right?
Finally, Otter. You're dedication and intelligent responses really resonate. I think we are probably collectively on a very narrow part of the bell curve. Simply because we have access to and utilize a web site. And particularly since those of us interested in/taking Bac have given some serious time, energy and research to find this alternative. I abhor the self-congratulatory, "I'm so smart, have the means, better than you" feeling I can get about this stuff. In part because I'm just not...smarter, richer, better. But I also often under-estimate my value and worth simply because I'm a drunk. It's nice to be in good company here. (Um, I'm not labeling. I hope there's a drunk or two on here like me. I have also really enjoyed reading from the ones who aren't drunks like me. Moderation. I wish and more power to you.)
From all walks and all nations. And given the fact that there are people all over the world on here, with the same struggles and thoughts, and beautiful spirit I see in myself and others, I am humbled. And THRILLED!
BH, thanks so much for starting this thread. It's important. Not just for us in the moment but for the future of treatment.
FTR, I believe my alcoholism is an illness, a disease, and not particularly like type-2diabetes. More like my high cholesterol. (Hereditary, incurable, a fact of life. Needs to be treated.) I feel like Bac isn't necessarily a cure. I take cholesterol meds everyday. Doesn't cure my cholesterol, just ensures I'm more likely to die from liver disease than a heart attack. Unless I quit drinking. Which then would mean lung cancer.
And on that light note, long live the spirit of a good debate!
eva

[beatle]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

The NCADD and ASAM define alcoholism as a "primary chronic disease". The AMA also currently uses the word "alcoholism" to refer to "a particular chronic primary disease".

Almost all people have "issues". Many people drink to deal with horrific events in their lives.

Many of these people are not alcoholics, simply because they don't have the disease of alcoholism.

[beatle]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

"cure" and "disease"

Fuel;916934 wrote:
My personal belief is it is not a disease...

"Cure" and "disease" are two different things.

Most diseases don't have a "cure", but they are still "diseases". (See my previous post regarding this definition.)

Alcoholism = disease
Baclofen = treatment

Patients with a disease are rarely held accountable for causing their disease.

Treatments rarely work equally for all patients.

Patients are expected to cooperate with their physicians to combat the disease.

Physicians are required, and are morally obligated, to treat patients with diseases in the appropriate manner as to best combat the disease and help the patient deal with the disease such that their lives are improved and prolonged despite the disease, curable or not.

Personal beliefs about a disease, or its manifestations, are interesting, but a disease is a disease, whether or not there is a cure, and whether or not an individual chooses to believe it or not.

[konbrot]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

Great post about Pill.B. Bill.P. It can only help those it can help.

[Otter]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

Neva Eva, well stated and a pleasure to read. I wish you all the best on your road to wellness. I think baclofen is a cure for the alcohol but not the ism. But we all have an ism tucked away somewhere and not all of us drink. Maybe the best one can hope for is to get rid of the alcohol and come to terms with what problems we still have to face. For some they are too painful or too difficult to overcome. I cannot imagine what it would be like to be extremely poor, uneducated and have no chance ever of a decent life and I think a lot of people here are the same. We are privileged to have the power of a computer and access to this website and the money to be able to indulge in the ordering of drugs on-line. And it is still not easy. What about the rest who are not so blessed? What kind of hell do they inhabit?

I read Seven Weeks to Sobriety cover to cover a few years ago to find out at the end that their treatment was only for recovery and did not address the "underlying" issues. I read Kay Redford Jamieson's book about bipolar disorder, "An Unquiet Mind", from cover to cover only to find out that, in her words, "bipolar is no different from any other kind of depression". I read up on bipolar and found out that the cause of it is considered to be a shortage of lithium which assists neurotransmission and that alcohol affects neurotransmission so no wonder alcoholics are often bipolar. Then I discovered that the treatment for bipolar, lithium carbonate, contains a near lethal dose of carbonate which makes patients shake and hate the treatment while the alternative, lithium orotate is never used by doctors because it is not a pharmaceutical. And around and around we go...

I also discovered that you can take Baclofen and not crave alcohol. But, if you have become hypoglycemic you can end up in a rage over the slightest thing and ruin your life as surely as if you had been on a week long binge. Then I read a post here by Deebee that L-Glutamine can sort out blood sugar issues and help with hypoglycemia.

There is still a long way to go in treating anyone who has drunk for a long time. We all have the capacity to be drunks. Baclofen gives you a tool to not be a drunk. It leaves you with a life but that for many is not a great thing. Baclofen is a cure for alcohol, no doubt at all, but there are medical and health issues caused by drinking and there are life issues which need to be addressed. Baclofen can help with those issues because it allows you to look at them in a different perspective with a brain that sees things differently and doesn't get anxious about the problems.

At least that is MHO for what it is worth.

Otter

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

Thank you Beatle, for your clarity and brevity. I get it. I would humbly reply that it's a great thing we're arguably coming out of the dark ages concerning alcoholism and mental health. It still feels pretty dark to me, though, in terms of understanding what's what. And that's not simply because I don't understand it very well... I think the scientists (not treatment ppl-often goes without saying) don't have a very good grasp yet. MRI's are great and all, but have we really come so far since 1950 or even the 30s? I really wish I knew what I don't know. What are 'they' working on? For profit or benefit? Interesting studies out of UVA, Italy all the ones cited here and in Ameisen's book. I still feel like something's missing.
Otter, was procrastinating restarting Bac, but due to circumstances somewhat beyond my control (I can't stop drinking, for instance,) will restart. I guess tomorrow. Along with some of the supplements and perhaps some will power. (though I threw out all the booze this morning. I'm still not going to be sober tonight. Made it through the first witching hour, though. Sigh.) Thanks for the well wishes and for your thoughts about Bac.
eva

Otter,

[Bruunhilde]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

Otter;920134 wrote:
I read Seven Weeks to Sobriety cover to cover a few years ago to find out at the end that their treatment was only for recovery and did not address the "underlying" issues. I read Kay Redford Jamieson's book about bipolar disorder, "An Unquiet Mind", from cover to cover only to find out that, in her words, "bipolar is no different from any other kind of depression". I read up on bipolar and found out that the cause of it is considered to be a shortage of lithium which assists neurotransmission and that alcohol affects neurotransmission so no wonder alcoholics are often bipolar. if you have become hypoglycemic you can end up in a rage over the slightest thing and ruin your life as surely as if you had been on a week long binge. Then I read L-Glutamine can sort out blood sugar issues and help with hypoglycemia.
Otter

Otter, that's the same path I took except I read about a forty other books as well. And I just found out today about bac. Wow. :new:

[Bruunhilde]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

Question. Does bac cause blood sugar issues? Or is that just the alcoholic body, bkz I think I already have this issue.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

me, too. and had the same question.
Some serious research and insight, here, Fletch. Will try to find what I found a while ago.
Did you order it? online or dr.?

[Brave Hearted]

Is Baclofen a cure ?

Beatle superbly put in a few consice words ! you never fail to bring reason and logic to any thread , thank you.

Weclome Fletch you have found a great site and a fantstic drug ! good luck too you. I am not aware of there being any issues with blood sugar levels and bac, but I am sure somebody more knowledable than me will answers your question,. THat is one thing you will find on here , ask a question and you will always get some form of answer, help or support it nothing short of amazing !.

I am extremely glad I started this thread its turning out to be very interesting and attracting some thought provocking responses and a lot of interesting information.

NE , most peoples paths to sobriety are paved with failure and good intention, one of my favourite saying is ' never give up giving' !

Interstingly I had to see a health care professional yesterday and I discuseed my self prescribing of bac, I was unsure of the reaction I would recieve as in the past when ever I have mentioned my al problem I have received a very negative response, the doctor actually said to me a few years back when I said I though I might have a problem with al ( there was no thought about it I knew I had but wanted to test the water) , he looked at me with contempt and said ' well stop drinking then ' ! which obvioulsy put me off mentioning it again. But yesterday was entirly differant she was open minded wanted to know the name of the drug and he said he would look into for his own records ! and even suggested I approach my gp to possibly prescrible it for me ! what a breath of fresh air, perhaps the tide is very slowly turning . I dont know about anybody else but I actually take some confort in finally acknowledign that I am suffering from a disease, as I have spent to many years loathing myself for my lack of self controll when it came to al, which was then created a cirlce of distruction as the more I loathed myself the more I wanted to drink to forget how I felt ! I now want to shout I am not bad I am ill !!!, and I have found a drung that keeps my illness at bay !

I turly feel blessed !