Baclofen - The Holy Grail or the Emperor's New Clothes? You tell me
I'm unfortunately a very rare and very quiet visitor to this incredible site these days for personal reasons. At long last though, these don't particularly involve drinking anymore, thanks to Bac and Nal (in which combination I haven't quite worked out yet).
I've read back a few pages and it's all moved quite fast, but I thought I'd quote Otter because I agree with absolutely everything he's said, and the post deserves repeating. I don't believe for-profit websites should be promoted here on MWO, but then I'm pretty sure that's not what he's suggesting, and not what he or Phil are offering. The point for me really is that I spent tens of thousands of pounds on expensive private detox which did nothing in the long run, why shouldn't these places offer Baclofen treatment that would cost a few hundred pounds (even with their fees!!) - and if they won't, why can't we put pressure on the medical services here in the UK to offer alternatives and start saving lives??!!
As for Phil, he helped me out an enormous amount when I was in a very bad place drink-wise and just starting on my own Baclofen journey. Every email was answered compassionately, and oh-so-quickly. I could, but won't, talk about the money aspect/profit angle, except briefly because there wasn't one. Just a kind soul who offered more than anyone could hope for in the predicament I was in at the time.
Otter I admire your efforts also, from what I've seen so far, and hope that I'll be in a position to get more involved soon.
Tip strikes me as one of the kindest and most caring members I've come across here (and that says something on this site, full of such wonderful folk!!) and I have no doubt whatsoever that he means the very best for all.
Best wishes my friends
eight
Otter;931969 wrote: Hi all,
I think there is a problem here. I came to MWO because I have a wife who has a very serious alcohol problem. We exhausted what "help" there was through the local health service and with various on-line medications. It was an awful situation. I read about MWO in an article about Ameisen. I first went to TSM forums and then here. I have found this site amazing. I log on every day a couple of times. It has been an enormous help.
However, I found implementing anything on the site very difficult here in the UK. The culture is so different. It is extremely conservative. There is a huge suspicion about on-line drugs. We get free medical care but doctors are not pro-active in comparison to US doctors. It is still a class-ridden society where people don't question their doctors. So, generally, go to a doctor here about alcoholism and start talking about web sites and they politely show you the door. You only get a 15 minute appointment anyway.
I don't have any problem with what Phil has done. There is no public support for Baclofen here and it is hard work trying to get anyone to take you seriously when you talk about a cure for alcohol. You might as well tell someone you are Santa Claus.
So, what is left? Nothing.
Unless people like Phil set something up nothing is going to progress here. There is a huge alcohol problem in this country and the government is absolutely switched off to medical intervention. The National Institute for Clinical Excellence has published a report on alcohol treatment that dismisses Baclofen as likely to be ineffective. That is where we are!!
Despite the special relationship between the UK and US (haha) the cultures are very different and people here are very skeptical of a lot of things "American".
So, I applaud Phil for what he is doing. I have had people write to me saying how they have benefited from his advice.
Anyway, Mywayout is also a private commercial site. Everyone here is helping the owners to increase their profits selling L-Glutamine and books. At least Phil is true to his cause.
Also, it is getting more and more difficult to find information and not everyone can get around it with ease. It is time consuming trying to find information. That is why I set up my site. I thought I would put everything I found useful in one place for my benefit and anyone like me.
You say this is somewhere people come for help. Of course, that is great. It has helped me. But that is all it can ever be.
No one in the UK is going to get anything changed by referring to posts on this site. No politician or bureaucrat is going to take anything on it seriously. I don't like that but that is the way it is.
I intend to use my site to provide information to people who might be able to make some changes. I cannot do that with MWO. I have paid money out of my own pocket to do something about it and I don't expect anything back. As soon as the government here starts taking Baclofen seriously it will be prescribed free by our national health service and there will be a big government announcement about it. That means that Phil and I become redundant. So to say that he or I are self promoting for some financial purpose just doesn't stand up.
The thing about Ameisen's discovery is that it is a revolutionary change in the way people can look at alcoholism. It is like the discovery of penicillin. It is incredibly exciting. Why would anyone not want to take this further and get involved? Some people do things because they just want to help. Phil is a doctor. Most people get into that profession because they care about people. It is not unusual.
We all have our roles to play. Maybe MWO is not the place for people who have other reasons for getting involved in alcoholism. It is a great site for self help. It gives the best infomation on the subject and support you could not find anywhere else for any other illness. But where do people go who are not alcoholics? Why not have other sites for other purposes and for people who don't want to get involved in a therapeutic community but still want to learn about alcoholism? And sites like Phil's for people who don't feel comfortable here and want some individual attention from a medically trained person. I have no idea what anyone on this site does as a career and there is a lot of completely wrong information and lots of different views. I think that by taking information away from this site and making it easier to find, I may have helped someone make sense of Baclofen. It cannot hurt.
.
Finally, even if Phil or I have some financial motive, what is wrong with that? Look at all the clinics out there making thousands per patient giving treatments that don't work. If a new speciality in treating alcoholism with Baclofen grows out of this with people earning a living out of it, what is wrong with that? I think it is a good thing and Phil is a ground breaker. Ultimately, treatment for Baclofen should not be left to "amateurs" which we all are. At least Phil is a doctor, and a lawyer, and very switched on. The French Baclofen site sets out as one of its missions, to encourage medical care over self prescribing. Whatever the good intentions of everyone on MWO it is not right that lay people are advising on medical issues and that is not going to change, here, in the UK anytime soon unless someone does something about it.
MWO is a place for people to help each other and I think we should all support each other in what we are doing because we are all working for the same thing, an end to this nightmare called alcoholism.
I'm unfortunately a very rare and very quiet visitor to this incredible site these days for personal reasons. At long last though, these don't particularly involve drinking anymore, thanks to Bac and Nal (in which combination I haven't quite worked out yet).
I've read back a few pages and it's all moved quite fast, but I thought I'd quote Otter because I agree with absolutely everything he's said, and the post deserves repeating. I don't believe for-profit websites should be promoted here on MWO, but then I'm pretty sure that's not what he's suggesting, and not what he or Phil are offering. The point for me really is that I spent tens of thousands of pounds on expensive private detox which did nothing in the long run, why shouldn't these places offer Baclofen treatment that would cost a few hundred pounds (even with their fees!!) - and if they won't, why can't we put pressure on the medical services here in the UK to offer alternatives and start saving lives??!!
As for Phil, he helped me out an enormous amount when I was in a very bad place drink-wise and just starting on my own Baclofen journey. Every email was answered compassionately, and oh-so-quickly. I could, but won't, talk about the money aspect/profit angle, except briefly because there wasn't one. Just a kind soul who offered more than anyone could hope for in the predicament I was in at the time.
Otter I admire your efforts also, from what I've seen so far, and hope that I'll be in a position to get more involved soon.
Tip strikes me as one of the kindest and most caring members I've come across here (and that says something on this site, full of such wonderful folk!!) and I have no doubt whatsoever that he means the very best for all.
Best wishes my friends
eight
Otter;931969 wrote: Hi all,
I think there is a problem here. I came to MWO because I have a wife who has a very serious alcohol problem. We exhausted what "help" there was through the local health service and with various on-line medications. It was an awful situation. I read about MWO in an article about Ameisen. I first went to TSM forums and then here. I have found this site amazing. I log on every day a couple of times. It has been an enormous help.
However, I found implementing anything on the site very difficult here in the UK. The culture is so different. It is extremely conservative. There is a huge suspicion about on-line drugs. We get free medical care but doctors are not pro-active in comparison to US doctors. It is still a class-ridden society where people don't question their doctors. So, generally, go to a doctor here about alcoholism and start talking about web sites and they politely show you the door. You only get a 15 minute appointment anyway.
I don't have any problem with what Phil has done. There is no public support for Baclofen here and it is hard work trying to get anyone to take you seriously when you talk about a cure for alcohol. You might as well tell someone you are Santa Claus.
So, what is left? Nothing.
Unless people like Phil set something up nothing is going to progress here. There is a huge alcohol problem in this country and the government is absolutely switched off to medical intervention. The National Institute for Clinical Excellence has published a report on alcohol treatment that dismisses Baclofen as likely to be ineffective. That is where we are!!
Despite the special relationship between the UK and US (haha) the cultures are very different and people here are very skeptical of a lot of things "American".
So, I applaud Phil for what he is doing. I have had people write to me saying how they have benefited from his advice.
Anyway, Mywayout is also a private commercial site. Everyone here is helping the owners to increase their profits selling L-Glutamine and books. At least Phil is true to his cause.
Also, it is getting more and more difficult to find information and not everyone can get around it with ease. It is time consuming trying to find information. That is why I set up my site. I thought I would put everything I found useful in one place for my benefit and anyone like me.
You say this is somewhere people come for help. Of course, that is great. It has helped me. But that is all it can ever be.
No one in the UK is going to get anything changed by referring to posts on this site. No politician or bureaucrat is going to take anything on it seriously. I don't like that but that is the way it is.
I intend to use my site to provide information to people who might be able to make some changes. I cannot do that with MWO. I have paid money out of my own pocket to do something about it and I don't expect anything back. As soon as the government here starts taking Baclofen seriously it will be prescribed free by our national health service and there will be a big government announcement about it. That means that Phil and I become redundant. So to say that he or I are self promoting for some financial purpose just doesn't stand up.
The thing about Ameisen's discovery is that it is a revolutionary change in the way people can look at alcoholism. It is like the discovery of penicillin. It is incredibly exciting. Why would anyone not want to take this further and get involved? Some people do things because they just want to help. Phil is a doctor. Most people get into that profession because they care about people. It is not unusual.
We all have our roles to play. Maybe MWO is not the place for people who have other reasons for getting involved in alcoholism. It is a great site for self help. It gives the best infomation on the subject and support you could not find anywhere else for any other illness. But where do people go who are not alcoholics? Why not have other sites for other purposes and for people who don't want to get involved in a therapeutic community but still want to learn about alcoholism? And sites like Phil's for people who don't feel comfortable here and want some individual attention from a medically trained person. I have no idea what anyone on this site does as a career and there is a lot of completely wrong information and lots of different views. I think that by taking information away from this site and making it easier to find, I may have helped someone make sense of Baclofen. It cannot hurt.
.
Finally, even if Phil or I have some financial motive, what is wrong with that? Look at all the clinics out there making thousands per patient giving treatments that don't work. If a new speciality in treating alcoholism with Baclofen grows out of this with people earning a living out of it, what is wrong with that? I think it is a good thing and Phil is a ground breaker. Ultimately, treatment for Baclofen should not be left to "amateurs" which we all are. At least Phil is a doctor, and a lawyer, and very switched on. The French Baclofen site sets out as one of its missions, to encourage medical care over self prescribing. Whatever the good intentions of everyone on MWO it is not right that lay people are advising on medical issues and that is not going to change, here, in the UK anytime soon unless someone does something about it.
MWO is a place for people to help each other and I think we should all support each other in what we are doing because we are all working for the same thing, an end to this nightmare called alcoholism.
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