Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

[Isolde]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

Just wanted to point out that OA has posted here:

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...age-41376.html

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...age-41377.html

Hopefully this doesn't make anyone question his professionalism. Personally, I thought it was pretty cool that he took the time to post here.

[Sunnyvalenting]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

Very interesting thread. Lots of speculation.
Neva, well said about hanging one's own hopes on a single index case, but thank goodness it did work on him in the first place.
I think what may be happening here and there is that groups of clinicians may be making "best guess" protocols and then adjusting them depending on their own internal clinical responses. This is how a lot of "protocols" become standard and refined. Since there is such a wide dose range the observations early on could easily be skewed heavily by a few "outlyers" which could erroneously result in a change in protocol which would not have been suggested had the early case been in the more average range. (I hope I am making sense to at least some of you)
Pub,
I know it is hard to find the correct word but for me it is not a matter of satiety. Maybe effective dose is a better term? I never craved baclofen even as I adjusted the dose upward on the "fixed" schedule I was advised to follow. What the addict craves is alcohol. The baclofen modulates and suppresses this craving without the reinforcing high. Someone postulated somewhere that they seemed to want more but in my reading it has been almost universally described as a drug which doesn't seem to be addictive in that sense. There of course can always be the exception which proves the rule and his may be it.
I hope for his sake and the sake of his family that OA is well. I don't think anyone has an obligation to post their progress or lack thereof on this public forum. I do so only in the spirit of collaboration with fellow current and formerly addicted who are sincerely trying to find a way out. I am so grateful that I did that I wish to share my little piece of the puzzle and my understanding of this drug and disease.
Sunny

[ignominous]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

Sunny
Well said, I for one appreciate your little bit of the puzzle. Sobriety however you find it is a goal well found.

Certainly no one should be forced or coerced to expose themselves on a forum such as this and I commend you amongst others for the 'unity of purpose' that you have shown by doing so. Obligation is a personal preference based on your beliefs and morality.

Finally I think the idea of satiety does not refer to craving (for Bac} being fulfilled as you allude (maybe I'm wrong here) but rather your body or more to the point your CNS system building up enough Bac to reach the "switch".

Through trial and error and the limited available information I have come to the same conclusion and have made my last increase exactly 1 week after the previous increase. (please see my thread https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ous-45179.html for confirmation). My intention is to increase in another 5 days which is the time it appears that the SEs start to subside. This is my intention with the information I have as it stands at the moment.

Sorry for the tomb but this is a subject which prevails my thought at the moment. I shall endeavor to lighten up and pursue the more earthy guttural harmonies.

[Sunnyvalenting]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

Good plan Ig, (on both matters!)
S

[Publius]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

ignominous;988248 wrote: Sorry for the tomb but this is a subject which prevails my thought at the moment. I shall endeavor to lighten up and pursue the more earthy guttural harmonies.hardly, well thought out, to the point, easy to read and understand

ignominous;988248 wrote: Finally I think the idea of satiety does not refer to craving (for Bac} being fulfilled as you allude (maybe I'm wrong here) but rather your body or more to the point your CNS system building up enough Bac to reach the "switch".

Precisely, maybe I lacked clarity when I was using the analogy with overeating. The "satiety" that I'm referring to is a neurological disposition wherein your GABAb receptors are fully saturated with GABA. While this seems to coincide with feelings known as "the switch" I am referring to the neuorlogical satiety, where your brain is brought up to full normal function. The point I was getting at before, is that people on a fast titration schedule are at an excess at their "switch" which is probably why the SE's don't go away, and they then titrate down to their "maintenance dose" (a dose they would have found to be their switch on a slow titration schedule). People, such as Sunny, :l have certainly increased the function of GABA transmission, but not to the point of normal brain function, which is why they never hit their "switch".

...I either clarified or made things more confusing.....:muahaha:

[Topsy-Turvy-Tracy]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

Thanks for the link, Isolde. I'd seen that thread before and forgotten. In Part I, he does completely blow away the idea that reducing craving is enough. :sulk:

Thanks for the explanation, Pub. It makes sense.

[Topsy-Turvy-Tracy]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

Thanks for the link to Ameisen's thread, Isolde. I'd seen it before and forgotten. In part I, he does completely blow away the idea that reducing cravings is enough. Crap! :sulk:

Pub, thanks for the explanation. It makes sense.

[Topsy-Turvy-Tracy]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

And I want to add that I hate you all, and I hate Amesein, and I hate his stupid disease, and I hate Levin, and I hate baclofen. :damn:

Have a good day.

[Topsy-Turvy-Tracy]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

Topsy-Turvy-Tracy;988554 wrote: And I want to add that I hate you all, and I hate Amesein, and I hate his stupid disease, and I hate Levin, and I hate baclofen. :damn:

Have a good day.

I'm sorry. I hope folks know that I don't hate anybody, but I do hate the disease. Both good news and bad news today. I can't get drunk and can't even get into drinking enough to finish a beer before it goes warm and flattens. I guess that means it's working, so that's the good news. The bad news is: I can't get drunk! Even when armed with a goodly dose of self-pity and a really foul attitude about the world. I did up it another 10 mg this morning - felt like crap, but it is working. This is what I wanted, right?

[guardian]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

That was the switch for me Tracy. I took me a few days to get used to the side-effects, but when I felt better it all clicked. I felt amazing, I didn't want to drink, couldn't drink, and was too captivated by how cool the world was without the debilitating side-effects and the nagging alcoholism.

[Topsy-Turvy-Tracy]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

Thanks, guardian. I'm not calling it "the switch" yet. I just can't get interested in drinking tonight, which is very strange for me. I think some of it is probably due to SE's making me feel not quite well and not interested in much except curling up with a book.

[Sunnyvalenting]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

Pub:
You say:
People, such as Sunny, have certainly increased the function of GABA transmission, but not to the point of normal brain function, which is why they never hit their "switch".

I disagree. I restored enough GABA to remain abstinent. Without drinking my normal GABA function returned on its own by natural healing and at a much lower dose than if I had waited for a switch to become abstinent. I actually agree with you that going up slowly whenever possible makes the most sense. I also feel we should always at least be trying for abstinence during this period. "Switch" or not the goal for me is and continues to be comfortable abstinence.
Good Thread
Sunny

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

[QUOTE=ignominous;988156]

However distended your perceptions are, I think that eons is still rather a bad choice of words when describing a discussion that at best goes back 16 years and for most of us can be measured in months.

You oscillate between giving these Doctor's fair privilege which is their due due to their elevated position in society and embrace them in the fold as brothers in the struggle. The two positions are juxtaposed; they cannot be inside and at a distance. Apologies if needed. Your conclusions are similar to what I'm drawing about the slow titration and 'switch'. I'm still concerned about being on such a high dose indefinitely and frankly would like a professional to give me some words of comfort.QUOTE]

Fair point. Eons is a little much. Months is more accurate. It's certainly not 16 years of info that people might want to read. Unless they're bored.
Elevated position in society? Really? The electrician, the plumber, the civil engineer working on our transportation problem... I would not for a moment begin to educate myself/them, unless my life depended on it.
The juxtaposition is this: Alcoholism is a disease. A disease which causes at best some impairment, at worst some really bad judgement. I'm not questioning OA's judgement, or Dr. Levin's. In my most miserable moments, I'm questioning their motives.

Pub, thank you for the info. I have also checked out Dr. Levin and while nothing screams out, I wonder about his interest in addiction medicine. I didn't think it was his background. It's really a moot point, and I'm sorry I went there. I don't really care.
He's prescribing, I'm thrilled.

I hate it all, too, Tracy. It's been a remarkably miserable bac day. :upset:

[muchthought]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

No, no - it's a good day. We're not lying in a bed comatose, we're not out hurting people, we're not dead, we're not out embarrassing ourselves, we're not causing our families pain again.

We just keep keeping on, and we just do the next thing. Joy comes in the morning! You wake up and it's a new day, and nothing destructive happened last night!

Push through my friends. And don't think toooo toooo much.

[ignominous]

Baclofen after the Switch - to taper or not to taper

Believe me (I hate it when people say that), that its human nature to take the line of least resistance. Where I live, if you know anything about, for instance, electricity: you hesitate to inform the expert electrician at your peril. I have an 'A' level in Physics - pretty amateur stuff - but I know that the earth wire should ultimately go into the ground. My life and those of my family may depend on it.

In many ways I think that the progress/civilisation that has happened in the West has robbed us of many of the responsibilities for our own lives. Along with this we are feeling estranged from what is really important, we can't see the wood for the trees. But I digress, this is a subject for another thread/forum.

I would think that your life might well depend on your physician's advice and if you have misgivings you ignore them at your peril.

It is my hope that in their elevated state of knowledge their reasoning might go something like this:
"Bac to be successful needs to be coupled with a strong desire to find the 'right way to live'. Therefore if we tell people the right way to take Bac we are again assisting and abetting the alcoholic mindset by again taking this responsibility from them. Therefore not productive." My hope only, please don't quote me!

Keep going Nev, we're going to get there.