Dosage and Frequency

[ignominous]

Dosage and Frequency

I wish someone would give me a personalised supply of supplements to take. How I envy your brother. I'm without any emotional support, my mother just verbalised cutting me out of her will, my wife, bless her, cannot and will not understand what I am trying to do here

You are doing your best with with no stone unturned.

You clearly have a lot of family members troubled by this. Maybe some family wide assesment of what is going on?

Please don't bite my head off.

[Sunnyvalenting]

Dosage and Frequency

Otter and others,
Since the dose response is so variable (from 15-300 or more/day) I still believe it makes more sense to do as the french study did and start low and build up to the necessary dose for low risk drinking or abstinence. The average need, I believe, in the study was 145/day.

I don't believe the amount of the drug needed reflects the severity of the alcohol disorder. I need very little but my sister was preparing for my funeral and i wasn't getting out of bed except to go buy booze.

There seem to be multiple variables.

At the clinic that treated me they wanted me on tons of supplements. they also put me on a very wierd diet (no gluten, sugar, caffeine, milk, and all sorts of other rules) I was cooperative for the 2 weeks I was there but when I want home I just tried to eat well which was much easier when I wasn't drinking and throwing up regularly. I didn't want all sorts of "new rules" about what I could and couldn't / should and shouldn't do or eat. I felt "not drinking" was enough for the first few months. It seemed to be enough to eat well and abstain and I felt very well and less neurotic than if I had had to worry about eating wierd. I gained a few pounds. Fat I am sure. I exercised a bit but not maniacally or consistently.

Subsequently I used that success to start a good diet and exercise program.

So there are many ways to approach this. I think sometimes we put too much stock in the peripheral stuff. Sort of like "magic potions". I am sure they do improve the placebo effect however and line someone's pockets.

I will definitely look into buying stock in the long term bac. It was one of the first things I thought about when I was having to pop 8 tablets/day 3 hours apart! (I set my cell phone timer and told my friends to remind me)

It was all worth it tho. I would recommend this (and do) to anyone who is trying and failing with more conventional methods. In fact since this seems to work so well I believe, in time, it will become the first approach rather than a last ditch effort. Why go to meetings if you can have a good life without them.

If we have emotional or health issues we can address them once we are free of this problem

all the best to all
Sunny

[Otter]

Dosage and Frequency

Each to his own.

The fact you are able to even use a computer shows you are not as seriously affected by this illness as many others. Some cannot even get out of bed from one week to the next without assistance let alone type posts. There are different stages of this illness and some are in the end stages. What do you propose they do if their life expectancy, if they drink, is less than the time it takes to titrate up to the trigger point? That is why some of here are carers, not sufferers.

[Sunnyvalenting]

Dosage and Frequency

believe me, In January I wasn't typing on the 'puter. Having said that I don't think we have to try to "one up" one another on how bad this gets or got.
I think someone in that state needs a doctor, lab tests, baclofen, abstinence and close monitoring. I realize that there are many who don't have the resources for that. But I think they too should at least start low to see if they respond to the low doses and titrate up as needed rather than starting high and working down. IMO. There are no controlled studies. We do our best.
Sunny

[Otter]

Dosage and Frequency

Shock Therapy!!!!!!!!!!!

I am in no way trying to one up anyone and of course it is best to have trials etc. I just feel that in some ways Ameisen has got it wrong both in terms of thinking that stopping craving is enough to stop a return to drink and also in his titration...for some people. Of course, slowly slowly is best if you can do it that way. Equally, it is best for some to get the dosage right as soon as possible so one view is that small frequent doses are a way of achieving that quickly. It is not for some but for my wife and Paul it stopped them bingeing within an amazingly short time. Binges can take days to exhaust themselves and we are all told that a person has to hit rock bottom. If that can be avoided then surely that is a good thing. Ameisen titrated up because he had no idea of what the medication would do particularly when mixed with alcohol. We now know it is safe in large amounts even when a person has a lot of alcohol in them. Yes, the side effects are awful but so are the side effects of lithium carbonate used to treat bipolar...worse in fact, but no one suggests not using it. Most psych drugs are awful to take and are administered initially by depot shot. We also still use electro-convulsive shock therapy. The list of horrendous treatments used regularly in our hospitals goes on and on. It seems on the one hand we all recognize how awful and intractable alcoholism is but few here want to acknowledge that sometimes, for some people it needs radical intervention for the sake of the sufferer and those affected by this illness. Maybe in the future, this treatment will be administered by compulsion. As you are aware, I set up a site Baclofen for Addiction - Baclofen UK and part of the message I am trying to get across there is that alcoholism is so serious that it needs, in some cases, compulsory treatment just as there is compulsory treatment for other addictions in the UK.

Maybe, if there is some publicity of a quick sober up treatment the press will get interested. Maybe this subject needs to be "sexed up" a little to get real public interest and support. Don't you think there are thousands of people out there like Paul and thousand upon thousands of family member praying for a release from the torture of watching someone they love go through hell downing litre after litre of vodka, day after day until they are nearing death's door?

No one, as far as I am aware, has ever come up with any treatment until last weekend whereby someone in the middle of a binge has stopped drinking by 2:00 and woken up the next morning sober!! What my wife went through in MHO was nothing short of miraculous and I am sure Susanna and her family felt the same way about Paul. There may be problems ahead and it is not perfect but it holds out hope for people like us who have to bear witness to the train wreck of alcoholism every day of our lives.

Ameisen got this whole thing going because he got publicity by saying he cured himself. Maybe it would give this whole movement more impetus if we got the message out that there is a way of stopping a binge in its tracks.

[susanna]

Dosage and Frequency

There is no way Paul would be resting comfortably today. Taking his own meds and vitamins. Preparing his own meals and generally calm and optimistic, had it not been for you sharing your approach Otter.

It is Thanksgiving weekend here in Canada. I have you to thank Otter, for the ability to have peace and hope this weekend. Last Thanksgiving weekend Paul was in a brutal detox ward at a hospital, where, in Canada, they don't administer any medicine-welcome to Barbaria). His girlfriend and I huddled at my home holding back tears for his suffering and our fear. This weekend, one long year later, we smile and give thanks!

There is definitely something to the hourly dose approach. It needs to be taken seriously.

[ignominous]

Dosage and Frequency

Without doubt OA titrated up slowly because he was the first and to do otherwise would have been dangerous, Now we have a lot of anecdotes suggesting its not dangerous, at worse its uncomfortable.

I wish you and Susanna had done this a month earlier before I started on Bac. It is significant and amazing news. When you say no one had done this before last weekend are you refering to your wife or to Paul?

When I was starting Bac I emailed OA and suggested that that the 1/2 million dollar trials could be done much cheaper where I'm living. We now know it was a waste of typing time on my behalf but the point is still valid. I'm still worried about where this is all leading and the lack of any clinical trials or firm data is criminal.

I started taking Bac fairly aggressively and then with my Bac 'thinking cap' on I realised that maybe slow and steady was the right way. In light of this new evidence maybe my original method may not have been irresponsible after all.

I decided to level out at 160mg over a week ago to give Bac a chance to do its thing. The last 2 days have seen the SEs abating and along with that I had increased my daily post Bac drinking from 1/4 bottle of whiskey to 1/2 a bottle. I had already decided to increase my dose by 20mg but now I'm wondering if I should ramp it up more aggressively. My body, my life, my decision.

Its food for thought. Getting new information on this drug is like getting blood out of a stone. Thanks to you both for getting this case study out there.

[Topsy-Turvy-Tracy]

Dosage and Frequency

Otter, I am really happy that you are doing what you are doing. I'm not "against" the detox method - I'm unsure about it and want more info. because it sounds dangerous. I understand (oh, boy, howdy - do I understand), the desperation that comes with the affliction and the hope that baclofen offers. I SO get that.

I do not think that Ameisen got it wrong. You'd have to pretty much be in someone else's care 24/7 to follow the "Otter method." Most people do not have that and, like I said before, I am not convinced that the method is safe, so I'm working on getting more info. I think it's also good to be in a position to realize what affect the medication is having on one's body - and that dictates the "low and slow" concept. I'm very uncomfortable with a "slow release" formula that garners big profits for big pharma because one of the reasons I was convinced that there must be something to this is that NO one was profiting from the sale of the medication.

I confused about something. When you say "my wife and I," do you mean that you, yourself, also have a drinking problem that you treated with baclofen? Would that make a difference to me? Yes, it would.

At any rate, some of us who became very concerned watching this thread have been talking about getting some professional medical input here from a baclofen-supportive doc. I really believe that people here want as much info as we can get, so I gather that there wouldn't be massive protest to that idea? Otter, someone in PM (lots of PM'rs rather concerned) told me that the protocol is being used in a clinic in Scotland. Is that true? If so, would you be comfortable PMing information on that clinic?

Anyway, I like info., so I'm gathering as much as I can.

But I do not believe that it is the general public or the average addict who needs to be convinced. I think it is the medical professionals (who, by and large, I believe are good people who want to do the right thing) - so the best way, IMHO, to approach this is to put it in front of them. I doubt most have ever heard of using baclofen to treat addiction. I think that most of them would likely be happy to know of it! I am going to keep testing and see if it does what people say it can do. Then, I'm on it (meaning baclofen in general - not the detox method until I have more info).

And I don't doubt that the online pharmacies will cry a million tears over the treatment going mainstream. They are making bank off people here. It breaks my heart.

[inde72]

Dosage and Frequency

susanna;978795 wrote:

It is Thanksgiving weekend here in Canada. ? This weekend, one long year later, we smile and give thanks!

I was planning to give you a shout-out tomorrow Happy turkey day!

W.r.t. methods, most drugs, licit or illicite go though a period where convention gets made, via case study, or mythology.

E,

[Topsy-Turvy-Tracy]

Dosage and Frequency

I have a Canook friend who assured me that goose, not turkey, was the favored Thanksgiving food in Canada. So, I tried it, going by his recommendations and his wife's recipe. It sucked to make, was not great to eat (crazy wild, made Duck look tame) and made a mess of my oven.

Turkey rocks.

[Sunnyvalenting]

Dosage and Frequency

I wanted also to remind anyone reading this thread that baclofen (as well as alcohol) lowers the seizure threshold in seizure patients and is at least relatively contraindicated in those with a past history of seizures.

[Topsy-Turvy-Tracy]

Dosage and Frequency

I read that high-dose baclofen can actually cause sezures.

But I was relying on information from the medical community, not an authoritative voice here - obviously.

[ignominous]

Dosage and Frequency

Chill............................................. ... .............................................

[Otter]

Dosage and Frequency

Very dangerous stuff

Yes Topsy, this is very dangerous stuff. No one should be put in our position but if there are no doctors with experience in treating what is one to do? I do not drink. No doctor recommends going in at 30 mg per hour but some people are taking that dose. This is not a protocol being used in a clinic. What is being done is people with serious alcohol problems are trying to find the right dosage as quickly as possible. If it is possible to sober up from a life threatening binge in less than a day then that is surely an important discovery. We are far from being out of the woods for all sorts of reasons. You are right to be skeptical and cautious.

[Otter]

Dosage and Frequency

Alive!

Well, there were some scary moments and we still have not got the maintenance dosage sorted out but the binge ended and she is doing well. We will probably try 20 mg every 1 1/2 hours for a while. It does seems that this approach works quite well but you have to be very careful and not stay at too high a dose for too long or come down too abruptly. It is definitely not for the faint-hearted but, hey, no one died.