Dosage and Frequency

[susanna]

Dosage and Frequency

Paul update 4:10 pm Saturday daytime report

Well - what a difference yet another day makes....

Paul is doing really well.
Dosage to now: 210 mgs
AL since this morning: 2 beers, a few smokes

Showered and groomed.
Been for a walk in the neighborhood.
Good disposition.
Catching up on mail; watching Fraser on TV and cracking up.

It's good so far today.

Evening report, later, in the evening.

[Otter]

Dosage and Frequency

Well done!

Hi Susanna

We just went shopping today and bought a new TV for our boy. We took the dog for a walk in the park and then went to a Pub for a meal and had some Coke to drink.

We are watching the X Factor now and then we are going to bed.

If I remember right, the leaves are turning gold in Toronto this time of the year. I hope you and Paul have a lovely walk.

Best wishes

Otter

[Lo0p]

Dosage and Frequency

Susanna,

You know...I wasn't gonna say anything...but...

I think your brother might have a drinking problem. Maybe you...or someone should talk to him about that...

[susanna]

Dosage and Frequency

Great news Otter

Hello Otter,

Again, words can't describe how good it is to read your update - much deserved peace for you and your family. I've been thinking much about you these past two-ish days.

It's hard to believe how quickly things can improve, from apparent hopelessness to confident optimism.

For us it turned around in two days, after 2.5 weeks of slow titration. Four days ago Paul was at 140 mgs/day after three weeks of titration, had no discernible decrease in AL craving, and consuming hard AL big time. He's been at levels over 350 mgs since then - Day Four.

When we are truly coasting along I will prepare a retroactive journal and notation of what transpired, so it's all in one place on this forum.

a bientot,
ss
PS - Sugar maple outside is a gorgeous autumn red....but it was also shorts and t-shirt weather here today.. best of summer and autumn in one day.
PSS- LoOp - you may be right, would you mind having a little chat with him?
PSSS-Muchthought - muchos gracias for your thoughts.

[sapphire1]

Dosage and Frequency

bravo Susanna,

YOu and your family are an inspiration to me and also a huge reminder that working together on this massive problem is the way to go. I have been following Pauls progress with much interest and am happy beyond words about how he is going so far. Fantastic!!!!

[muchthought]

Dosage and Frequency

Susanna - When you write your journal you could make it look like that ad for Lipitor "I can't believe I had a heart attack at 57" give the wonder drug a made up name, send it to a bunch of doctors and magazines... with an asterisk at the bottom touting the lowly baclofen.

[susanna]

Dosage and Frequency

bac ad and buy shares

Which ever company is working on slow release bac - we shd all be buying shares now.

I'm a marketer by profession so it just so happens I can get that ad whipped up for you MT.

My girlfiiend is in pharma sales - apparently the docs respond quite well to wine and cheese education sessions. And docs use bac for their own "off label" stress management. Oh the irony of it all!

[Lo0p]

Dosage and Frequency

Alkermes is the name of the company.

They had a press release about it a while ago if I recall. If I had money I'd consider buying shares.

[Otter]

Dosage and Frequency

What have I done!

When I started with the Bac treatment it seemed to me that someone with a serious drink problem would have a huge problem with it for a variety of reasons:

1. They would not access the internet
2. There are no doctors who understand Baclofen
3. They would need so much Baclofen to get to the switch that they would run out/get exhausted before they got there.

The way Ameisen has titrated up is for someone who is still working and generally functioning well enough to engage in their own treatment and not hard core alcoholics.

The problem with hard core alcoholics is that it becomes difficult to manage their situation on the way up to the switch and afterwards. There are far more aspects to alcoholism than just the Gaba B disphoria. I don't think you can or should medicate someone so they feel drugged. I like the natural approach advocated by Joan Larson because it is sustainable and improves health rather than tinkering with parts of the brain in the hope that something will trigger a complete change of life and restoration of physical health. That is not going to happen and I was not surprised to hear that the trial conducted by Ameisen gave rise to a host of problems for those participating. Their bodies and brains were knackered from alcohol abuse. Alcohol affects not only the brain but various glands which excrete hormones etc., such as adrenaline, melatonin. If you damage these then you end up with someone with "mental" imbalances. If you try to treat those imbalances by drugging the brain you create a whole host of problems and leave the cause untreated.

Because this is a baclofen forum I think there is too much emphasis here on sorting things our with a drug. I agree baclofen does reduce craving but how do we calm the body and mind once off alcohol so that the brain is not just permanently drugged?

The rapid detox I proposed here does seem to work but I strongly advise/warn that there is a lot of repair to be done to the body after lenghty alcohol use and I keep coming back to the use of treatments such as L-tryptophan and melatonin and the natural products advocated by Joan Larson as well as good nutrition.

[Lo0p]

Dosage and Frequency

Otter;978340 wrote: What he said

...and exercise! Cuz' we gotta get high off somethin' dammit!!!

[RedThread12]

Dosage and Frequency

Yep. Exactly.

Susanna - now is not too soon to start Paul with some supplements to help repair damage. They are part of the basis of the original MWO program, and there's lots of info in the "Health Store" and on the "Holistic Health" thread.

Here's what I've found to be most (incredibly) helpful: L-Glutamine https://www.mywayout.org/community/f6...ine-37269.html - up to 15 GRAMS/day; All-One Vitamin Powder (lots of amino acids); GABA (calming neurotransmitter); 5HTP (serotonin precursor). There are some others that I use as needed. It's a whole different research project, but well worth it IMO. Sapphire1, from the Underoos thread, knows a lot about this stuff - it's what she used to help bring her son through schizophrenia! So awesome.

I wish I could afford to support this online store, but I can't, so I order everything from Vitamins, Minerals and Supplements - Buy Discount Vitamins Online - Vitacost. Be sure to get the Rice-based or Fruit-based All-One. I hear the original doesn't go down so well.

Matter of fact, maybe the whole family could use a little GABA:h

[ignominous]

Dosage and Frequency

For me I now realise that alcohol is not the problem.

It causes many problems but the reason is beneath alcohol.

Bac has given me a chance to look at these underlying problems without the haze of alcohol.

[susanna]

Dosage and Frequency

Thank you RedThread:

He is indeed on a mega-vitamin-amino-supplement program - a consolidation of tips from people here, a naturapathic doctor friend, a nutritionist. But always picking up new ideas such as the SHTP. Perhaps a new thread sharing wholistic-integrated recovery practises would be useful to all here. Many peeps have PM's me with their personal protocols.

Here's what I think, having buried two uncles who died from AL, and with probably a dozen living family members with the same affliction I do feel I have enough experience with this disease and other serious illnesses to have an opinion! I have also closely nursed my other dear brother to his death from AIDs, and a step-mom from ovarian cancer both of whom died at home, under our care. So you can imagine that I am not about to lose my last dear brother needlessly to this disease, without a fight like no one has ever seen before.

The good news IMO is that this AL affliction doesn't have to be deadly anymore - with the help of meds and a wholistic treatment approach this addiction can now be 'treated' like other diseases.

Consider that the most advanced treatments for any serious disease (ie: cancer, AIDS etc) now draw upon a full range of modalities including western medicine (i.e. drugs and surgery), Chinese medicine (accupuncture, herbs), naturopathy, nutrition, physio (excercise and massage) AND emotional therapy (psychotherapy, cognitive behaviour therapy etc). All of this equals wholistic and integrated medicine and is a progressive and approached to treatment.

I believe the bac can provide a clear space in a person's life and mind to apply the full range of resources above to addressing the physical and emotional trauma experienced by the whole body (which does include the brain).

Using advice and research garnered from this forum, a naturopath, and a nutritionist, Paul is taking:

For intense detox period:
Every two hours- doses of digestive enzymes, L Glutamine, Ester C, Calcium, Magnesium, Tyrosine, multi vitamins, Multi B vits. Milk Thistle (for liver recovery).

Then he will take the same stuff above on a regular basis for a long time, if not forever.

Also on a regular basis now and going forward:
SHTP (new as of Red's reco this morning)
Gaba 750MG - 1X MORNING and 1 hour before bed
Niacin VItamin B3 - 500mg 1x morning and 1 hour before bed (you can take extra when feeling more anxious - up to 4x day). Has a calming effect among other things.
VItamin B6 - 5x daily 100 mg (for 6 months then go to 100-200 mg a day) (Good for seratonin release, depleted by meds, smoking and alcohol.)
VItamin B12 1x daily (for energy, red blood cells)
Omega 3 fish oil - (for replenishing liver and brain). Take lots!
Vitamin C - 500mg x 6 daily
Lecithin Capsules 1x before each meal (Good for brain and helps liver move fats through body).


Perhaps a new thread is in order.....Wholistic integrated recovery program.

We will not surrender!

RedThread12;978438 wrote: Yep. Exactly.

Susanna - now is not too soon to start Paul with some supplements to help repair damage. They are part of the basis of the original MWO program, and there's lots of info in the "Health Store" and on the "Holistic Health" thread.

Here's what I've found to be most (incredibly) helpful: L-Glutamine https://www.mywayout.org/community/f6...ine-37269.html - up to 15 GRAMS/day; All-One Vitamin Powder (lots of amino acids); GABA (calming neurotransmitter); 5HTP (serotonin precursor). There are some others that I use as needed. It's a whole different research project, but well worth it IMO. Sapphire1, from the Underoos thread, knows a lot about this stuff - it's what she used to help bring her son through schizophrenia! So awesome.

I wish I could afford to support this online store, but I can't, so I order everything from Vitamins, Minerals and Supplements - Buy Discount Vitamins Online - Vitacost. Be sure to get the Rice-based or Fruit-based All-One. I hear the original doesn't go down so well.

Matter of fact, maybe the whole family could use a little GABA:h

[RedThread12]

Dosage and Frequency

Sapphire1 and I have talked about starting this thread, too. Something will pop up, soon!

[Otter]

Dosage and Frequency

5HTP

Hi

I agree with everything here except you should be careful with 5HTP. There are some very worrying reports on it because it does not cross the brain barrier and builds up in the blood. Tryptophan is available and is safe. It is now marketed as Optimax on prescription.

Here it is:

Tryptophan > 5-Hydroxytryptophan > Serotonin

Based on the above metabolic sequence it would appear desirable to use 5-HT instead of tryptophan since 5-HT more readily converts to serotonin. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that is often deficient in the brains of depressed people. Boosting serotonin can alleviate depression in some people and reduce carbohydrate cravings in others, thus inducing weight loss. Here's why 5-HT will not work for most Americans, and could be lethal to some people: The blood-brain barrier does not allow significant absorption of serotonin from the blood. The brain does have a large neutral amino acid pump that freely allows tryptophan and 5-HT into the bran for conversion into serotonin. The process by which 5-H is converted into serotonin is called decarboxylation. If decarboxylation occurs before 5-HT is absorbed by the brain, than blood levels of serotonin will elevate significantly, but very little serotonin will enter the brain. When Europeans take 5-HT, they are often prescribed the dopa decarboxylase inhibitor carbidopa that prevents 5-HT from being converted into serotonin until it reaches the brain. Americans do not take carbidopa with 5-HT and the result is possible serotonin overload in the blood, with virtually no serotonin reaching the brain. We will describe later the dangers of overloading the blood with serotonin. Americans taking 5-HT are more vulnerable to blood serotonin overload because, unlike most Europeans who are vitamin deficient, Americans who use 5-HT usually take large doses of vitamin B6 as well. Vitamin B6 rapidly converts 5-HT into serotonin before it can reach the brain. Even when combined with carbidopa, high levels of vitamin B6 will break through the carbidopa barrier and insure that 5-HT converts into serotonin in the blood before the it can reach the brain The multiple health benefits of vitamin B6 are too important, we believe, to recommend that people avoid taking vitamin B6 just to enable them to try using 5-HT to boost brain serotonin levels. This may be difficult anyway without also taking carbidopa, which is only available in the US. as a prescription drug. At the very best, those who take vitamin B6 with 5-HT are probably wasting their money. Unfortunately, high serotonin in the blood in not benign. Anyone suffering from heart disease should avoid 5-HT because the elevation in blood serotonin could cause coronary artery spasm an/or abnormal platelet aggregation, which are risk factors for sudden death heart attack. Here is the real frightening aspect of serotonin overload, as described by Dr. Harris: "Serotonin causes not only harmless flushing and diarrhea, but people with serotonin secreting tumors (hindgut carcinoids) also have problems with fibrosis of the endocardium and valves of their right hearts with can cause heart failure. The effect can also be seen with dietary intake of only modest amounts of serotonin, and there has actually been described in the medical literature, a tribe of South Sea islanders with right heart fibrosis as a result of eating green banana mush, which poisons them with its serotonin content" Dr. Harris goes on to state that people who ingest several hundred milligrams a day of 5-HT with B6 and without a decarboxylase inhibitor would expect to see urinary excretion of a serotonin metabolite in the same range as a person with a serotonin secreting tumor. Based upon Dr. Harris' report the Foundation had its analysts conduct an extensive review of the medical literature and have come to the following preliminary conclusions. 1) For 5-HT to boost serotonin levels in the brain it is necessary to: a)Take 50 mg of carbidopa before each 5-HT dose. Carbidopa is a prescription drug. b)Limit vitamin B6 supplementation to a small dose taken at least six hours before or after 5-HT carbidopa dosing. c) Have a urinary test to measure a metabolite of serotonin called 5-hydroxy indoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) on a regular basis. As long as 5-HIAA levels are normal, than 5-HT intake would be safe. 2) Those with existing cardiovascular disease, including atrial fibrillation, coronary artery disease, congestive heart failure, cardiomyopathy, valvular disease or pulmonary hypertension may want to avoid 5-HT completely. One Foundation analyst felt that 81 mg a day of aspirin and 500 mg a day of magnesium would reduce the risk of 5-HT inducing a heart attack. 3)The effects of 5-HT by itself elevating blood serotonin levels are extremely individualistic. Some people may not experience any blood serotonin increase, while others could suffer from a lethal serotonin peripheral overload. 4) Despite the potential dangers of 5-HT, most FDA-approved drugs to treat depression and obesity appear to be more toxic. 5) At the time of this printing, we have not been able to verify whether 5-HT induced serotonin overload would cause fibrosis of the aortic valve and destruction of the heart muscle. Based on the potential health risks of ingesting 5-HIT, Bio Recovery has decided not to offer it tat this time. we encourage anyone seeking to use 5-HT to follow strictly the above protocol for safe 5-HT supplementation. We'll post further evidence regarding 5-HTP as soon as it becomes available. This warning applies only to 5-hydroxy tryptophan (5-HT), not tryptophan itself. Published studies show that tryptophan does not readily convert into serotonin in the blood, but that 5-HT does, since 5-HT can convert directly into serotonin while tryptophan has to go through one additional metabolic step which protects against blood serotonin overload,