the chemistry of drinking while taking alcohol and other things

[Publius]

the chemistry of drinking while taking alcohol and other things

Again, very informative and thought provoking Henry. I totally agree about the logic of the brain counteracting the constant doses of ethanol via neuroadaptation. Prior to the introduction of alcohol in ones system, most of these processes were probably balanced correctly (except for GABA transmission), and have after years of ethanol abuse are now out of whack. What I am positing is that once baclofen is introduced, and the GABA transmission is running smoothly once and for all, the body will, after a period of time of limited ethanol intake(whether that's 6 months, a year, or longer) undergo neuroadaptation again, only this time the brain functions will revert back to their normal state, and homeostasis will be achieved, making the brain appear normal. It seems that we started with a problem (dysfunctional GABA transmission, yes possibly genetic in nature) exacerbated the problem (by self-medicating the issue via ethanol), in doing so created more problems that branch off (further neuroadaptation). It seems to me that people have been focusing on the wrong problems, such as the symptoms and secondary problems caused by chronic ethanol intake. I think it stands to reason that if you fix the underlying root problem, in this case GABA transmission, than the secondary problems will work themselves out. As kind of a post script to my babbling, the neuroadaptation isn't really a problem, though it may seem like it. That process is a testament to the beauty of the brain's ability to adapt, even if it is misguided, and the brain is strong enough to adapt the other way as well.

holler

[Isolde]

the chemistry of drinking while taking alcohol and other things

ignominous;976013 wrote: Phoenix

I think you literally are on the wrong page. Maybe Electons thread?

LOL

Ha, I think all of the talk about neurotransmitters and GABA a and b and such addled your brain a bit, Ig (I know it did mine!) :H
Phoenix was responding to the first couple of lines in henry's first post:

"As regards taking baclofen while taking alcohol, its effect on hangover and withdrawal symptoms must vary from individual to individual. It has in fact been my experience ? and not only mine ? that taking baclofen while taking alcohol greatly subdues the hangover and withdrawal symptoms the morning after ? in fact makes them really nonexistent."

The reason it stood out for me (besides it being the only part of the post that actually made any sense to me!) is because I've had the opposite experience, as I thought most others had too, but I guess for some people bac makes them not get hangovers?? I definitely feel that the alcohol affects me more on bac, and tends to make me feel more like ass in the morning than I normally would have.

[PhoenixRising]

the chemistry of drinking while taking alcohol and other things

Not so fast, Ig, I was responding to the original poster's observation:

henry;975797 wrote: As regards taking baclofen while taking alcohol, its effect on hangover and withdrawal symptoms must vary from individual to individual. It has in fact been my experience – and not only mine – that taking baclofen while taking alcohol greatly subdues the hangover and withdrawal symptoms the morning after – in fact makes them really nonexistent. .

[ignominous]

the chemistry of drinking while taking alcohol and other things

Sorry Phoenix and Isolde

I just woke up and have been trying to make sense of the 'plain speak' link from Publius. Has put a couple of things in their proper place. Its taken me sometime and I haven't got onto 'Alcohol chemistry and you'. I think I need to bathe my head in ice cold water for half an hour first.

[henry]

the chemistry of drinking while taking alcohol and other things

You may be right if the reason that we plunge very quickly to the bottom after successful recovery from alcohoi is to do with the reward system. But for anyone to whom this has happened (it did to me) the experience is one where the brain is out of whack almost immediately on waking up the morning after (in the afternoon) since I drank all night (the reward system?). But it is not as if I could stop - which I put down to the fact that the neuroadaptation brought on by years of alcohol abuse (the excitatory activity which went into action as soon as alcohol was withdrawn from my body (through sleep).

I wrote this to Tracy:

'the reason an alcholic cannot go back to drinking normally even after prolonged abstinence is because the biochemical changes to the brain remain. ie on drinking alcohol after say a year without, the same excitatory system kicks into compensate for the onrush of alcohol into the brain. it does not revert back to its state at say 14-18years of age (if only!) but remembers what it did the last time it received alchol (a year, two years ago, whatever). Then you are kind of back to square one except that you know you have had a years abstinence and know that if you have done it once you can do it again (except the depressing thought hits you that this cycle of abstinence and bingeing will never cease). Until in my case baclofen came along - as I am sure it did in the case of many of us here!'

I thank you for this: like you I am simply trying to understannd the neurophysiological process underlying the miracle of baclofen and trying to find reasons for hoping that the effect does not wear off (reasons that explain the necessity of baclofen being a lifelong 'cure' and not temporary [Cliff Robertson in Algernon!]). So I am piecing together theories and peronsal stories but just like people in this field (to which I do not belong though know something about neurophysiology - synaptic transmission etc) make reasoned conjectures which may or may not be true based on knowledge of neurophysiology. Time will tell whether this story - reasoned story but story still the same - has any basis in fact and experimental investigation. It is not a question of having the answers but trying to make sense of my experience and that of others while accepting the variations. Trying in effect to find reasons for having as Tracy puts it a hopeful mood! I just hope Dr Ameisen's significant change of mind - if it is in fact a fact - was based not on his falling of the wagon but simply of his observation that all things being equal all individuals - which is what we are in the end - have a much greater probability of remaining AF if we remain at our switch level .... the level at which we felt supremely indifferent to alcohol.

[henry]

the chemistry of drinking while taking alcohol and other things

isolde

I did feel foggy or muggy the moming after but a strong cup of coffee sorted this out. What I did not feel was the immediate craving for alcohol that normally ensued. i could do a hard days work and did not have the terrible anxiety that came from withdrawal symptoms - the knowledge that I was going to plunge into a vat of the hard stuff as soon as I left work (which I tried to do as soon as I got there - think of ways of doing this). The other thing baclofen does when drinking alcohol is that you dont have to or want to drink nearly as much (again my experience) - so hangover and withdrawal not as intense. Actually now I think about it hangover symptoms were much less intense after years of abuse (compared to hangovers when I first started drinking before my body adapted).

The thing is to be able to distinguish subtly nuanced and different experiences so that we know what we are comparing. But we all have difficulty in doing so.

[Sunnyvalenting]

the chemistry of drinking while taking alcohol and other things

there is a concept in neuroplasticity that "what fires together wires together"
The way I see it we drank for however long and permanently wired our brains such that one drink led to the next and so forth. This concept for me is reinforced by the understanding that the most common path to relapse is a drink. (Duh on some level! it would have to include a drink, of course). This is why I plan permanent abstinence.
I do know that since alcohol acts as a gaba enhancer our brain naturally tries to compensate by decreasing intrinsic GABA output and decreasing GABA receptors. Therefore when we take the alcohol away we are now deficient and experience withdrawal symptoms which can range from simple uneasiness to full blown DTs- a medical emergency and anywhere in between.
Further as we drank we drank more and more as the set point for felling the good feeling from alcohol rose. Once stopped it takes some time to reset this joy point. It takes awhile for "normal, healthy, prosocial fun things to feel right or adequate for us. If we persist, tho, this improves. I see my job each day as "rewiring" my brain. Giving my brain many alternatives to the very limiting life that alcohol dependence gave me.
Good luck to all. This is a very interesting thread
Sunny

[PhoenixRising]

the chemistry of drinking while taking alcohol and other things

Sunnyvalenting;976341 wrote: there is a concept in neuroplasticity that "what fires together wires together"
The way I see it we drank for however long and permanently wired our brains such that one drink led to the next and so forth.

I suspect this is how the Sinclair Method works?

[Topsy-Turvy-Tracy]

the chemistry of drinking while taking alcohol and other things

This is a good thread. I wasn't in the head space yesterday to keep following it. I like the statement "what fires together wires together." That is behaviorism, I think.