4 meds - which one?

[Sunnyvalenting]

4 meds - which one?

Geico,
Why do you say athiest is a harsh word? How is it harsher than the word theist?
Sunny
Following this thread with interest and wishing everyone success.

[37degrees]

4 meds - which one?

I meant "physical dependence" in the sense of tolerance and withdrawal - I don't have them, or only have them to a minor degree. http://www.alcoholcostcalculator.org...about/dsm.html .

But, I qualify for the "alcohol abuse" definition in spades.

[37degrees]

4 meds - which one?

Well, I am finishing 3 months on NAL/TSM. I can't honestly say it makes a difference. I drank very little the past week, but AL intake goes up and down.

Here is an interesting personal experience. Due to work-related reasons I was AF and NAL-free for the 4-day weekend. Today, I had a couple of beers without NAL. According to TSM doctrine, I should have gotten such an endorphin rush that I wouldn't be able to stop drinking. In fact, I didn't finish the 2nd beer because the bar/restaurant was so cold that I left. The buzz (mild from just 1 1/2 beers) was about the same as on NAL or pre-TSM.

I am going to conclude that NAL /TSM does nothing for me. I am sure that it works for a few people, just like any other treatment. There are some who insists that it works yet has deviated from the Method by adding other meds, or imposing self-control, or persisting for a year. I read comments like "I had 10 drinks today, but I feel in control, and besides without TSM I would have drunk 20, so this really works", or "I am down to 50 drinks/week thanks to NAL", or "I still drink daily from habit, but I have zero craving for 2 weeks now, so I am cured". I wonder how many people are really benefiting from this remedy.

I may try BAC next, but I am very leery of its cognitive side-effects. Maybe I will just try self-control for a few weeks. It didn't work before, but I am older now, and have some AL-related legal problems as an impetus.

[Sunnyvalenting]

4 meds - which one?

I am now 10 1/2 months AF on Bac. There were no significant cognitive side effects for me when I titrated up slowly. There was sleepiness at first which slowly improved. I am a high level professional person. (Cognitive effects of hangovers were very significant compared to bac) I took the first 2 weeks off as i was being treated at a clinic but am totally able to do my job as well as my avocations and social commitments.. W respect sleepiness I was able to adjust timing so I wasn't driving at peak of dose.
I am now only on 20 mg at bedtime. I may stay on it indefinitely. It is likely a placebo effect now.
In a recent study in France (open label) it worked in over 80% of patients as defined by abstinence or significantly reduced units.
Good luck
Sunny

[37degrees]

4 meds - which one?

Sunnyvalenting;1013167 wrote: I am now 10 1/2 months AF on Bac. There were no significant cognitive side effects for me when I titrated up slowly. There was sleepiness at first which slowly improved. I am a high level professional person. (Cognitive effects of hangovers were very significant compared to bac) I took the first 2 weeks off as i was being treated at a clinic but am totally able to do my job as well as my avocations and social commitments.. W respect sleepiness I was able to adjust timing so I wasn't driving at peak of dose.
I am now only on 20 mg at bedtime. I may stay on it indefinitely. It is likely a placebo effect now.
In a recent study in France (open label) it worked in over 80% of patients as defined by abstinence or significantly reduced units.
Good luck
Sunny

Thanks for the info, Sunny. Do you have the study citation off hand?

My work often involves unpredictable night hours, making it difficult to fine-tune BAC dosing intervals. As I mentioned a while back, I plan on taking some weeks off work and titrating up quickly without worrying about work commitments.

Just got back home this afternoon after a week away (mostly AF). Took a NAL and on my way to 6 drinks tonight. Actually, I want more, but I will be out of alcohol soon. The preceding 4 days of AF don't affect my buzz one way or the other. Like I said, NAL doesn't seem to affect my drinking at all in any way. With or without NAL, on a daily basis it seems easier for me to go AF than to restrict myself to 2-3 drinks. I really like wine, but I may have to aim for abstinence rather than "controlled drinking".

Too bad TSM doesn't work for me; the promise of "controlled drinking" is very attractive, esp. since NAL has minimal side-effects. But I see no point in continuing past 3 months since there is no plausible physiological reason why it would suddenly kick in now. Of course, the "science" behind it was laughable in the first place, and there is at most 2 or 3 clinical studies backing TSM. I'm not going to argue with anyone reposting the 100+ studies proving that TSM works, but as someone who used to be on an IRB committee I say BS.

Unfortunately, there is still no magic pill for alcoholism. I'm going med-free for a month, try self-control only, and then start BAC.

[joe12pack]

4 meds - which one?

37degrees;988205 wrote: TSM is much like AA in that both insist on faith in their methods and blaming the victim in case of failure. Cults, in both cases.

absolute bullshit! don't listen to this guy people. TSM requires no faith of any kind. read the damn book. you take a friggin pill an hour beforehand. if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, there is NO blaming of anybody! bipolar axplains a lot with this guy. I know of several people for whom TSM worked who didn't believe it would work. I agree the book is over the top and it takes longer for TSM to work than the book claims for many, also the degree to which TSM works varies among TSM'ers.

But this guy logged into the TSM ofrum and immediately started telling everybody it doesn't work, yet for some idiotic reason he was supposedly practicing it. If you go into a forum and act like a dick and insist what people are doing doesn't work, you'll get treated like a dick. that is not a cult following and it's not faith of any kind. it's just people calling you out for being an asshole. blame others for your abrasive attitude if you like, but I must call you out here James.

BTW, TSM has cut my intake in half, but I'm looking to maybe add Bac or Topa to the mix to make more progess.
bipolar explains a lot. maybe get back on lamictal. BTW you ran a mentally unstable vet out of that forum who was talking about suicide, I hope he's ok.

[37degrees]

4 meds - which one?

Great for you to come into here and start off being an asshole. You are a prime example of someone insisting that TSM is working when it is clearly not. Since TSM cures 78% - no, 90% of compliant users - you must be almost cured after 9 months. Why stop now? Drinking means you are doing yourself good with extinction!

Like I said, some of you exhibit classic cult-like behavior, and are too self-deluded to recognize it.

[joe12pack]

4 meds - which one?

I stated that since it's not working as well as I'd like it to, I'm going to add something else!
What's cult like about that?
I have stated before that the 78% number is high in my opinion, I have stated in my previous post that since it is not working as well as I'd like it to I'm going to add something else.
What's cult like about that?
What is cult like about taking a pill an hour before you drink?

by the way, eskapa came back with updated DBP studies. I'm not a scientist, so I would not argue what you make of the studies, but it certainly was cool of you to raise a bunch of hell then turn tail and run before eskapa delivered the data he said was coming soon.

look, the damn thing may not work for anyone, maybe the only people it works for are experiencing placebo effect, I couldn't disprove that myself.

my point is: there's absolutely no faith or group support required. there's nothing cult like about taking a damn pill an hour prior.

I NEVER INSISTED THAT TSM WAS WORKING. It's helping, but not working well enough.

So what's your theory? Naltrexone turns people into cult members who worship eskapa (even though most TSMers agree his book is off?) God! again, take your meds before you drive another ptsd vet to possible suicide

just because people get pissed at you for belittling them, that doesn't make those people a cult. those are people who rejected the cult like 12 step mentality in favor of a scientific approach which requires NO faith and DOESN"T blame ANYONE if it fails a person. it's failed a lot of people. who blamed them? where do you get these idiotic notions that taking a pill = cult?
you really are bipolar and off your meds aren't you?

[37degrees]

4 meds - which one?

I can give a reasoned, analytic response, along with my medical/scientific opinion of the 100+ references.

But, it feels much better to just tell you to fuck off.

Troll.

[Sunnyvalenting]

4 meds - which one?

37
Loop posted a google translation of the recent french article. It is on this med area quite close to the top. I will bump it for you.
I hope this isn't going to degenerate into personal attacks again.
Sunny

[37degrees]

4 meds - which one?

Thanks Sunny. Interesting reading and comments on the article.

[joe12pack]

4 meds - which one?

37degrees;1014800 wrote: I can give a reasoned, analytic response, along with my medical/scientific opinion of the 100+ references.

But, it feels much better to just tell you to fuck off.

Troll.

nice

[37degrees]

4 meds - which one?

I understand that there are more than 100 references supporting TSM. I would be happy to analyze them in detail if someone can send me all the papers. And pay me at my usual professional rate of $200/hour.

[brightlite]

4 meds - which one?

Whew! As a person that has tried most of the meds on here, NAL and TSM did not work for me and I gave it up after 3 months too. I didn't believe continuing was going to change anything in my brain. I have since tried good old fashion moderating, but as of late I have a few bingeing episodes, so looking again to BAC.

Everyone's path to sobriety is varied and a combination of treatments can be effective. I don't believe that any of the medications will be the only true cure. It is and will always be a lifelong battle and combined with therapy, exercise, meditation and or any other spiritual program that suits your needs will always provide you with more tools to fight.

Come on...can't we all get along and be here to help each other?

[_EndOfTheLine_]

4 meds - which one?

brightlite;1015024 wrote: Whew! As a person that has tried most of the meds on here, NAL and TSM did not work for me and I gave it up after 3 months too. I didn't believe continuing was going to change anything in my brain. I have since tried good old fashion moderating, but as of late I have a few bingeing episodes, so looking again to BAC.

Everyone's path to sobriety is varied and a combination of treatments can be effective. I don't believe that any of the medications will be the only true cure. It is and will always be a lifelong battle and combined with therapy, exercise, meditation and or any other spiritual program that suits your needs will always provide you with more tools to fight.

Come on...can't we all get along and be here to help each other?

Yeah I agree. I think the "TSM" tag should be dropped. There is, as suggested, a sort of cultish vibe sometimes to TSM. Ha, in saying that, I think it will work for me....but this is not based on just hope- I have some of the phenotypic indicators of success using Naltrexone (sweet preference, family history of alcoholism & being male, older before dependance- I have references for these if anyone wants them). I do think people should keep an open mind. I think the way Dr Eskapa's book is written is flawed, but justified. It needed to be that way to create a hype ("Cure" "78%"[like wtf?]), otherwise I (and other people) certainly would never have considered Naltrexone and would not be rid of this problem. My doctor never heard of it, my pharmacist had to order it especially etc. The downside is that he never presented the available evidence (at least not to my recollection) that is out there that suggests that it is just one weapon in a battery of available pharmacological interventions. All readable books are like this though, Dr Amiesan's Bac book is the same. In my analysis, I think hype is necessary to shift from the one--dimensional view of alcoholism.

All that being said, there is no need for the ruthlessly hateful remarks that have been in this thread today.