What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

[Isolde]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

Due to the insomnia and other insidious SEs that I was experiencing at 155mgs, I dropped down to 135mgs. I believe that was on Saturday, so I'd been at my switch dose for about a week. I wanted to stay on it for awhile before titrating down, but I desperately needed to get some sleep. I'd even tried xanax and klonopin (the latter of which ALWAYS works for me), and I fell into a deep sleep for a few hours, but then I would wake up and just lie there. It wasn't the annoyed tossing and turning of before, I was quite relaxed, just wide awake.
Despite an incredibly high level of stress, I still hadn't been feeling any inclination to drink with the lower dose. Yesterday was an especially difficult day, and I had been thinking of having half a glass of beer with dinner. I ended up feeling bac'd out of my brain (plus had half of a xanax earlier in the day which I was still feeling in my system), and ended up forgetting all about it..
Once again tonight, half a glass of a cold beer is sounding good. I'm not sure if this means I should have stayed at the switch dose longer, but there was just no way I could do that. I was thinking about it though - abstinence was never my goal. I just didn't want alcohol to consume my life any longer. Mission accomplished! I would LIKE to be able to enjoy a beer or glass of wine every now and then. As it stands right now, I've been AF for 7 days. It's funny, I couldn't remember if it had been 5 or 6 days. I had to look back at my thread to see what day I'd decided to stop drinking.
I'm still getting a LOT of side effects at 135mgs, which I wasn't getting before. Aside from the insomnia, everything is pretty much the same as it was at 155. I feel drugged a lot of the time. My eyes are heavy lidded, I have a hard time focusing, vision-wise and also mentally. How much of this is due to the lack of sleep I was experiencing is hard to say. I did get a pretty good night's sleep the last 2 nights. But my coworker told me today that I looked tired. This morning when I woke up, I felt like I could have slept for the rest of the day, easily. That's actually due to something else that happened recently, but I'll update that part over on my own thread, so as not to hijack this one.
I am definitely looking forward to titrating down more! But want to let the bac do it's work, so thinking I'll stay at 135mgs for a week before going down again.

[ignominous]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

Isolde, I also cannot recall how long my abstinence has been. On previous occasions I would have been diligently counting the days or hours in my head, garnering that information to give me strength to fight another day. Now Al is such an infrequent visitor too my brain that it is unimportant. It amazes me not that I've stopped but that I could ever have been under its hold in the first place!

I was very reluctant to titrate down because I didn't want to lose what I had found. I am now down to 210 and wanted to go to 200 yesterday after only one day at the reduced 220. Thankfully I'm still keeping my log and could see that I was only on 220 for one day and have decided to give it at least 3 or 4 days before going down. One of my worst SEs is increases forgetfulness which for the record was never a strong point of mine but has now grown to imbecilic proportions!

My present opinion with the lack of solid information available as usual is this:
We want and need to come down
We titrated up despite the difficulties and the uncertainties
Now I am titrating in the direction I desire, weaning off Bac
It took me 30 years to get here
I can prolong my discomfort for another month or so to make sure I do this to the best of collated advice and facts
Which is in my opinion is to titrate down slowly

I also have thought about drinking. I used some wine to cook yesterday and nearly took a swig, old habits die hard. What disconcerted me is that when I came to put the glass away 5 mins later, I really, really wanted a taster. For me abstinence is the goal but I could see myself becoming a social drinker with this mind set. For me that will be a decision I will take a year from now.

I also get the the sleep bit. As I was titrating up I was alarmed at the amount of sleep I was getting. Often less that 4 hours a day. Along with the fact that I didn't need more. Very strange.
Now on the way down I feel like I could sleep for a year. I'm still waking up every 2 hours but can now get back to sleep usually. Maybe now my body is trying to regain the sleepness nights that I expended getting to my switch. Whatever, I think that feeling in need of sleep is a positive sign that things are getting back to normal.

Finally; I'm not sycophantic by nature but you do seem to be traveling a similar path as me. Also!

[Isolde]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

Yup Ig, it definitely does seem that our bac experiences are uncannily similar!

I went through a period on bac that I wasn't getting much sleep but still felt rested. Now when I don't get much sleep, I definitely feel it. It's been getting better over the last few days though.

I also don't understand how AL ever had its hooks in me so deeply before! The worst part of being AF is when my boyfriend would come from a work dinner or hanging out with friends and his breath would reek of AL. And to think that used to be me, ALL the time. Like I mentioned in the Daily Gifts thread, I had part of the beer that I poured last night and didn't enjoy it and just wanted to get the taste out of my mouth asap.

I hear you on the forgetfulness. I've got that on top of the lack of focus. I find that writing lists helps, assuming you don't forget to look at them! I do that quite often actually! :H

I think I'll be able to stay at 135mgs for a little bit, at least for the full week, before bumping back down again. I'll see what my doc says tomorrow and will let you all know!

[ignominous]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

Isolde

Must admit when I read that 'gift' it sort of gob-smacked me. To me it's sort of the antithesis of what I'm aiming for. I would shy away from such an experiment out of fear but then I'm not so brave and am definitely looking for abstinence. Very satisfying to hear you didn't get pissed as a fart though and thank you for sharing it.

Interesting about your reaction to the beer. Maybe it was just habit beckoning you, not 'craving'. I think Al definitely has a two pronged hold over us. If I were Sunny I would urge you to use some will power there and allow the rewiring in the brain to get a bit dug in first. Ha. I'm not and its much more scintillating for me to read about you pushing the limits of Bac.

She also mentioned that she feels:
It is almost like that was a different person
I would second this as I know I am a changed person. Maybe what your habits are telling you to do are not what you want to do any more.

Oh yes,
Almost forgot to bring up the continued forgetfulness
So I would say
Shit!
Forgotten that life altering epiphany

[Isolde]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

Ig, you know what the funny/sad thing is now that I'm not a drinker? It's not that I don't know what to do with myself. I've got enough going on to keep me occupied right now. I'm worried that I'm not going to relate as well/the same with my family and friends. I hang out with my brothers and father and we all drink - beer, wine, scotch, what have you. It's what we give each other for Christmas presents. It won't be an issue all the time, but my brothers' reaction to my recent stressful life event was to invite me out to the pub. I had too much to do to go, but I wouldn't want to turn down invites like that just because I don't drink. At first they'd think it was weird that I wasn't drinking, but I think I'd also get bored quick too.
I don't know, it's a lifestyle that, for the most part, I rather liked. I enjoy the social aspect of it. I didn't even overdo it too often, it's just that I had to have my fix every night.
I think that's what I was looking for w/the beer last night. You are right, it was definitely something I was doing out of habit, not out of craving. At the end of a long hard day, I was used to having a cold one with my meal and relaxing with it. That's what I was missing. How messed up is it that I FINALLY found something that helped me kick AL, and now I'm kind of missing it? I think I'm alone in this. Everyone else seems so overjoyed to be free of AL's clutches. And here I am missing my crutch somewhat.

At least I'm glad to know that you got a kick out of me pushing the limits!

[Sunnyvalenting]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

IMO, if you enjoy spending time w fam and freinds at a pub while they drink and you don't and if that doesn't make you anxious then by all means go for it. I was told by the people who treated me that I could be the bartender if I wanted to! That the recovery would become that secure. I already have a career so i won't test it that way. I am not abstinent because I fear relapse. I am abstinent because I think my best chances for a full life without needing bac in the long run lie in a choice that I can now make for abstinence. I am no longer choosing out of fear but out of wisdom. Believe me, I have "HAD ENOUGH"! I want to be healthy and am now able to do other healthy things for myself and they all "count" since I can actually do them and not drink and get discouraged and down. Such a relief. Don't want to let go of a good thing. For me there is no down side to not drinking.
Sunny

[Mish]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

I have just read this thread and am very grateful for all the input. I am two and a half weeks into my Bac journey. My Addictions Specialist at Fresh Start Recovery Programme prescribed me 100 mg daily. I am also taking Naltrexone and Campral. I feel like it is only since starting on Bac that I am getting a handle on the Beast's demise. I'm happy to hear of your successes on reaching the switch and can't wait to get there...thanks again.

[ignominous]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

Isolde I think we have so much experience in drinking environments that we are bound to feel comfortable there. I feel that is one of the areas that I will have to work at. I also am woefully at relating to people without having a few drinks inside me, or so I think. Some people say differently and that's hopeful.

Although I'm married, some of my most satisfying sexual encounters have begun in bars or clubs and with me being drunk. I will just have to find a better way to fulfill those desires. Any helpers out there please pm me.

[ignominous]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

On another direction I have at last made contact again with Dr Fred Levin MD.

The cost of normal phones here aswell as the quality of the lines prevented me using that method and the internet connection gives me at best a 1/2 hour window to fit into his 7-9pm time frame.
Plus of course my dread of being rejected (for want of a better word) a 2nd time.
Therefore this morning I decided that my opening gambit of clearing the air and telling him I could not afford to pay him was better replace with "Hi, I'm a high dose Baclofen user"

The conversational highlights were something like this:

"Maintain switch dosage is OSs idea and not based on a whim but from our conclusions and the evidence we have based on the 100 odd people we are treating"
He also implied that OA hadn't fallen off the wagon though I didn't ask him directly

I was giving him more space to say what he wanted this time, when I rejoined he considered my thoughts for a fleeting moment and then reiterated his own. I thought he didn't take my point of view seriously enough but I am prone to that and he is the foremost medical expert in this field in the world. And proud of it, I would be. I understand.

We touched on various reasons for not titrating down and my disbelief that his patients had no severe SEs. I told him that the fact that his patients were being treated by a Doctor at the pinnacle of this field might have some effect on psychosomatic SEs and we sort of agreed there.

Generally he thought I was in a good 'place' and that titrating down was an option if SEs were uncomfortable. Though he was adamant that it should be taken slowly with a least a week for every 10mg drop. Would have liked to have delved deeper into this but he had another call scheduled and I asked if I could call him back to which he agreed wholeheartedly.

We still had a couple of minutes left so he asked if he could give me his address to which I replied that I already had it and read his email address back to him. He then said his physical address which he then gave to me adding that's where I could send the money. Downer but then he's the man right?

Few more minutes of rushed conversation ensued with me trying to get back on the same page. He said I could send as much as I want "How about $50". I protested that I begrudge spending any $ in my present state. "40?". Basically send as much as you feel comfortable with. We agreed on this and will send him a letter next time I'm in Thailand where the postal service can be relied upon.

He needs this to make sure he's not talking to a nutter who's called him on a whim. I can relate to that and wish to assure him did not call on a whim.

PS If Dabs is reading this and still feeling generous pm me!

[ignominous]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

My feelings about which protocol to follow after this conversation are that I will titrate down further but I shall do it at an even slower pace that I have done thus far.

This is an inconvenience to me but rather less so than being an alcoholic. There was something in our conversation about a suitable maintenance level but to be careful not to overshoot it.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

From this article:
The little pill that could cure alcoholism | Society | The Observer.

Eventually, in March 2002, he took the plunge and wrote himself a prescription, starting low and gradually increasing his dose.

Almost at once, the effects were positive: "It controlled my anxiety better than any of the standard anti-anxiety medications. It reduced my craving for alcohol and enabled me to remain abstinent for longer periods." He even found he had lost the urge to shop compulsively. Each time he increased the dose he would feel sleepy, but this wore off after a couple of days. That was until, in February 2004, he reached 270mg – a dose 150-190mg above the maximum dose for most countries. At this level, the sleepiness did not wear off, but he noticed something else: his desire to drink had gone. "I was completely and effortlessly indifferent to it," he wrote.

He called this the "threshold dose" and reduced it until he came down to 120mg a day, a "maintenance dose" on which he remains to this day, occasionally topping up by 20-40mg when he feels particularly anxious. He can now even drink socially – an idea entirely counter to the teachings of AA and most other therapies. "I became disease-free," he says. It seemed he had discovered a treatment that might save millions of lives and improve those of even more."

I think this offers up a lot to think about. According to the article, it took him almost 2 years to get to the switch. Where he was "sleepy" and it "didn't wear off." And he titrated down. Also, I would think of 'disease free' to mean that I wouldn't have to take medication for the rest of my life... like a cancer that's been excised, as opposed to a disease like diabetes that needs to be managed for life. I suppose for me that the 'magic pill' version of bac does the former, the reality is that I've got to manage this for the rest of my life. Better controlled than controlling.

[ignominous]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

Thanks for that Ne. Read all the article etc. but at the time I read them didn't know what points were important. The bit about the SEs not wearing off was very significant to me.

My SEs started becoming insistent around the 150mg mark so I suspect that may be my threshold dose if I had stayed at it longer.

I have decided to reduce my dose another 10mg today to 200. Well, it is on the longer side of my reductions 3 or 4 days. This one is after 4 days at the previous dose.

Actually 2 more things spring to mind about my conversation with Dr Levin

1) He suggested that I try taking 3 doses evenly spaced for the SEs. I had told him that I was taking 4 doses at 6 hourly intervals but agreed to give the 3 a try. Which I have been doing today and frankly this has made things more uncomfortable. I shall revert back to 4 even doses tomorrow. In retrospect I think he may have gone into spiel mode and not been concentrating fully.

2) He suggested an article about Baclofen in June 2009 issue of Science magazine would explain his thinking more clearly. He told me that this was the single best publication available today! Looked it up online and could only get an abstract. If anyone has more, would appreciate it if you could post here. Also I doubt that I will follow it so if you understand it it would be nice to have it translated to layman terms for me.

3 springs to mind. Like to put in a curve ball in my posts. He was suggesting I should take Xanax for the SEs. I told him I dont take paracetomol if I can avoid it so he dropped this eventually. But I remember that he mentioned it was for anxiety. Maybe he was refering to the panic attcks that several of us have experienced. Just a thought. I got mine around the 150 mark.

[ignominous]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

Side effects don't seem to be reducing at all. Sometimes I feel more 'stoned' than I did at 250mg.

The worst is forgetfulness; yesterday I went back to 4 doses a day because its easy to remember but forgot to take the last dose.

Woke up this morning and opened a bottle of whiskey for breakfast.

No, only joking but the forgetfulness is strong and frankly pissing me off. I actually got a better than usual nights sleep and have no desire to drink. Even if I forget that I'm a recovering alcoholic I wouldn't fancy a drink if someone offered me one, so no worries there. Arsenic hour is still another 4 hours away but I took an extra 20mg for breakfast to compensate for the shortfall last night.

Short term memory loss is not good for life. Anyone seen that film '50 first dates'?

[ignominous]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

Only one thing to report today and that is that the SEs haven't subsided for me and I'm forgwtting things more than usual.

[ignominous]

What to do after the switch? Taper or not which protoclol?

Keep on forgetting thin.................

Shut the fuck up already Ig2