Progress thread for ne

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

This is going to be hard not to shout.

I'm not sure where along this journey I've given the impression that I should, would or could be a statistical anomally by hitting the switch any sooner than this!
I'm also unclear about why I feel pressure to find indifference.
I say the following with all due respect, and please take it as my opinion, based on almost 10 months of obsession:
I have looked at the numbers incessantly. I have followed the threads and have copious notes on who hit what, when, and what they did following the switch.
My conclusion is this: Playing with dosage can lead to failure to hit the switch. Other factors include gastric bypass, other drug use and general craziness (meaning comorbidity.) Supplements and otc medications might also interfere with finding indifference. Number one reason for not finding indifference, imho? Expecting immediate results. Number two, being unable or unwilling to stick it out at all costs.
There is a bell curve in this as in all things.
It remains to be seen whether or not SEs are a result of continued alcohol abuse/use and/or alcohol withdrawal.
There is NO EVIDENCE that baclofen can be taken pro re nata (prn-as the circumstance arises) in order to deal with the compulsion, or craving, of alcoholic drinking. None.
There is also NO EVIDENCE that rats treated with baclofen will choose to drink alcohol again if they are subjected to the temptation to drink. In fact, they choose water.
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but, I am.
READ THE SCIENCE! FOLLOW THE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE FOUND INDIFFERENCE! HEED ADVICE WHEN IT PERTAINS TO YOU!
And that beatle, is going to be the start of the thread when I hit ABSOLUTE indifference. Maybe. It could be a little strident... The other might work too.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

I have just opened myself up to a whole new world of attack. From the haters, the doubters, the newbies, and the ones who know much more than I. (I hope the latter will be gentle, the rest can bring it on.)
I didn't want to digress too much previously, but look at the numbers, people.
Most of us take more than 3 months to find indifference. Some, like OA, terryk or moglor, take a good deal longer.
If some of you can find the way to feel the way that I feel today (okay, yesterday, I went up today and it's uncomfortable) then you'll be as exultant as I am. THIS IS A GIFT JUST FOR ME! (and you, I hope.)
oop! Gotta go. xo and :h

[Lo0p]

Progress thread for ne

I think its "pro re nata" or something like that.

[seeking_serenity]

Progress thread for ne

Speaking of terryk, I was impressed as hell by his work in this thread:

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...now-44989.html

If I ever wondered about "Dr. Phill's" qualifications or whatever, my worries have been laid to rest by that thread. Just sayin'.

[ignominious]

Progress thread for ne

I agree serenity and it was slightly embaressing reading the link you posted. I had no idea of the struggle that Terry endured to reach his switch until recently and for that commitment he can only be applauded. I say in all seriousness that Terry may well know as much about Baclofen as Dr Phill and is without doubt a better source of information.

Ne, you're correct that I object to your post about me. Certainly didn't mean to upset you I presume that was due to your concern for me which is very endearing. However I thought pms (private mails) and private chats were just that........private. Silly dysphoric me. Your breathless enthusiasm for Baclofen is still endearing and warented.

[seeking_serenity]

Progress thread for ne

Iggy, I certainly didn't mean to embarrass you with that thread! I just focused on "Dr. Phill's" posts and terryk's responses, and terryk definitely "won" that battle of the wills. He certainly asked some very pertinent questions, which got absolutely no answers. So much for England's version of "Dr. Phill." He sounds very much like our own U.S. version of Dr. Phil, who is also a physician who lost his license to practice...

[coalfire]

Progress thread for ne

prn means as required.

[ignominious]

Progress thread for ne

Know you didn't seeking, not that dysphoric yet! But interesting to see how ones attitudes get formed and changed over time.

[ignominious]

Progress thread for ne

prn is the abbreviation of a latin phrase which like titration and taper is not contextual but is correct.

[bleep69]

Progress thread for ne

coalfire;1041303 wrote: prn means as required.

Thanks, and thanks to all the others who replied, don't know how to quote multiple people...

[beatle]

Progress thread for ne

Is it better to start/take baclofen when AF?

neva eva;1041194 wrote: This is going to be hard not to shout.
I've been taking baclofen for 14 weeks and a day. That's 3 and a half months, people.
I spent the first 5 or 6 weeks working my way, erroneously, up to 50mg/day. (silly, beginner mistake mired in fear, imho)
In 8 weeks I've titrated, relatively reasonably, from 50mg/day to 220mg/day.
I'm not sure where along this journey I've given the impression that I should, would or could be a statistical anomally by hitting the switch any sooner than this!
I'm also unclear about why I feel pressure to find indifference.
I say the following with all due respect, and please take it as my opinion, based on almost 10 months of obsession:
I have looked at the numbers incessantly. I have followed the threads and have copious notes on who hit what, when, and what they did following the switch.
My conclusion is this: Playing with dosage can lead to failure to hit the switch. Other factors include gastric bypass, other drug use and general craziness (meaning comorbidity.) Supplements and otc medications might also interfere with finding indifference. Number one reason for not finding indifference, imho? Expecting immediate results. Number two, being unable or unwilling to stick it out at all costs.
There is a bell curve in this as in all things.
I fundamentally disagree with a couple of things that are being bandied around on the threads right now, as part of a new trend on MWO.
There is NO EVIDENCE that continuing to drink will result in failure to hit the switch/indifference/cure. (NONE!) In fact the overwhelming evidence is just the opposite!
It remains to be seen whether or not SEs are a result of continued alcohol abuse/use and/or alcohol withdrawal.
There is NO EVIDENCE that baclofen can be taken pro re nata (prn-as the circumstance arises) in order to deal with the compulsion, or craving, of alcoholic drinking. None.
There is also NO EVIDENCE that rats treated with baclofen will choose to drink alcohol again if they are subjected to the temptation to drink. In fact, they choose water.
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but, I am.
READ THE SCIENCE! FOLLOW THE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE FOUND INDIFFERENCE! HEED ADVICE WHEN IT PERTAINS TO YOU!
And that beatle, is going to be the start of the thread when I hit ABSOLUTE indifference. Maybe. It could be a little strident... The other might work too.

I don't think Dr. A has ever weighed in on whether or not it is better/easier to hit the switch when AF. He was AF when he started his baclofen journey, although I don't know if he stayed AF the whole time. Maybe someone else does, or maybe I just missed that part (I read the book 1.5 years ago, and whilst drunk, so it is not impossible that I simply forgot). I also don't remember how long it took him to titrate up to indifference, but I do remember that he hit the switch at 3.6mg/kg. (I also know this proportion varies wildly from individual to individual, and should not be taken as the magic equation written in stone. I am currently at 3.8mg/kg and no switch in sight.)

Note also that Dr. Levin apparently does not suggest his patients stop drinking before embarking on baclofen treatment. As I said, I haven't heard Dr. A weigh in either way, but considering he is working closely (I think?) with Dr. L, it seems logical to assume (or presume) that Dr. A does not feel strongly that you ought to be AF when you start baclofen therapy.

Certainly, we know that many people have hit the switch whilst drinking heavily (just look at birdy, for example: drank every day up until switch -- drank 10 beers the night before). There are loads of others on here with similar experiences to birdy's. In fact, I think the drinkers far outweigh the AFers (when they began baclofen) here, but I have not done any kind of counting on this forum, and in any case, it would not make for any kind of scientific evidence, since all the participants are self chosen, and most vital stats are not known.

Now, whether the AFers hit the switch earlier and/or with lower levels of baclofen than if they had been drinking, I don't believe there is any way to measure that without a scientific experiment, but many on this forum have expressed the belief that for them being AF helped with the SEs and the amount required

As for those on MWO who postulate or speculate (and give advice based on this postulation/speculation) that getting/being AF first will be more effective, well, I would say that had all other variables been equal (weight, drinking history, age, use of other medications, general health, etc.) of those who take bac on this site whilst AF and those who take it whilst drinking, then we could certainly compare them and glean some possible meaning from comparing them (although, as you know, correlation is not cause). But it would still be based on anecdotes and not the results of a scientific study.

And for me (I only speak for myself here), the suggestion to get AF first is in itself nonsensical. I have forced myself to get sober many times with extreme discomfort --days in bed, hallucinations, even a grand mal seizure once (whilst driving on a motorway in rush hour traffic). I am not able nor willing to do this again; Getting AF first is not an option.

In other words, I am not taking baclofen to STAY sober, I am taking it to GET sober (and then I plan to continue to take baclofen to stay that way).

Sorry for the long post, much of which is probably already self evident to most people here.uch:

[beatle]

Progress thread for ne

neva eva;1041159 wrote: beatle, I hope you don't take the following the wrong way.
You are one of the ones that I've followed back and forth through the threads. It's fair to say that I've read almost everything you've written. More than once. Your mind is awe-inspiring, as is your determination. The knowledge you've accumulated about this disease... left me despairing of my own lack of understanding on more than one occasion. And eager to find out more.

There have also been a couple of times when you've called me to the table, whether you knew it or not. and hoo boy, it stung. Each time your reaction was apt, and helped me see my own fallibility. Thank you for that.

You keep this place real, and when you stopped posting regularly I was pretty upset about it.
Thank you! sorry to gush. Hope it doesn't make you uncomfortable.

As to the rest, it took OA a very long time to find the solution. Willingness to explore the options, and to 'go to any lengths', to find our own solution is the crux of the matter.
More on that in a moment.
I'm with you in the battle.
Karen

I'm a bit puzzled as to why you prefaced your post with: "beatle, I hope you don't take the following the wrong way..." (unless you were afraid I would think you were being sarcastic... oops, maybe you were?)

Yeah, your gushing does make me feel a bit uncomfortable, but appreciated, too. I often don't get much response to my posts, and wonder if what I am saying has any relevance to the people here (or perhaps I just write ridiculously lengthy posts that scare off most people who have a limited amount of time to spend on MWO ).

I've never shared my baclofen journey on here (or with any real-life people either), partly because I worried that it would be "bad luck" to jump the gun, and also, I didn't want to discourage others if I "failed".

I have been taking baclofen for 17 months (and no "switch"). I just counted accurately now; I think I've said various numbers in recent posts, but this is the real number: 17 months. I'd like to hear if anyone here can beat that (or even come close).

I do take consolation and hope in knowing that Dr. A took a long time... then again, many people can accomplish it very quickly, which can be inspiring when you begin taking bac, but disheartening and downright depressing when you hit 17 months and still no switch.

I'm still a believer, and I'm trying different approaches. Am currently leaning Otter's way: smaller doses more often -- keep your bac concentration even throughout the day, rather than spiking up and down throughout the day. Today's my first day on the new protocol.

[bleep69]

Progress thread for ne

17 months! What dose are you currently on beatle? It might be depressing and disheartening to you, but it's quite inspiring to me. 10 points for sticking with it, I sincerely hope you hit your switch one of these days soon. You'll have a good story to tell, as well - "Did you know it took me 18 months. Yes, that's right, 18 months. Unreal, I know. I got a bit downhearted at 17, but then..."

[beatle]

Progress thread for ne

Taking back on a prn basis

neva eva;1041194 wrote:
There is NO EVIDENCE that baclofen can be taken pro re nata (prn-as the circumstance arises) in order to deal with the compulsion, or craving, of alcoholic drinking. None.

This is just my own take on this:

While I don't think any studies have been done on this, it seems logical to me that taking bac prn in ADDITION to one's regular maintenance dose (in anticipation of difficult situations) could actually make sense.

And while there is no scientific evidence that taking baclofen prn works, I see no scientific evidence that proves it doesn't work either. To me, it makes sense, and I may try it out when I get to that point

Of course, the prn strategy would necessitate planning ahead. There is no reason to believe it can be taken on the spot and immediately stop cravings, and there is no reason to believe that a person who is not on baclofen normally could just carry around baclofen for those kind of situations... I think it would already have to be in your blood at some level, and the extra would just be bumping its effects up a notch.

This is how Dr. A does it. He has said so numerous times. I think there are others who use this strategy successfully. And I don't think there is any reason to discourage people from trying it. Either it works (if so, great), or it doesn't.

(For me personally it is a moot point. Taking more bac in anticipation of tempting situations (I have tried this) just agitates me further and increases my desire for alcohol to calm me down physically.)

I just thought of something else rern-- Many people's regime is to take their doses top-heavy in the later part of the day as they approach the "witching hour". Isn't this essentially the same as the prn concept?

ok, I'm done here. I just used half my work day on this and I have a lot of catching up to do.:egad:

[beatle]

Progress thread for ne

bleep69;1041388 wrote: 17 months! What dose are you currently on beatle? It might be depressing and disheartening to you, but it's quite inspiring to me. 10 points for sticking with it, I sincerely hope you hit your switch one of these days soon. You'll have a good story to tell, as well - "Did you know it took me 18 months. Yes, that's right, 18 months. Unreal, I know. I got a bit downhearted at 17, but then..."

Thanks bleep. You cheered me up. I hope you're right.

I'm on 200mg/day, or 3,8mg/kg. Lots of SEs, but they don't scare me as much as the alternative. It's probably obvious, but the reason it took me so long to get here is a very VERY slow titration in response to extreme SEs. I would never let the SEs make me give up (knowing that they won't last forever, that is) -- but I can't let them get so bad that they defeat me.