Progress thread for ne

[RudyB]

Progress thread for ne

hi you lovelies!
neva eva i just love reading your posts! your writing style and candor are so entertaining. whatever negative stuff you refer to, i'm glad i missed it! what i read on this tread is insightful and heartfelt and informative. here i am, a gal of 41, single mom whose ex wants to slay her in court cause he's a narcissist, finding hope that life will soon be a lot better no matter what cause i can slay the demon that lives in my head. you give me hope that i'll pull through and experience some of the wonderful changes that you describe. THANK YOU. and please keep posting tons. love it!!!!

[RudyB]

Progress thread for ne

reggie,
i love the song you posted by Unthanks. beautiful music!
for those who love spanish, my favorite song today is by a group called 'jarabe de palo' (translates as 'stick syrup'. funny!) it's called 'me gusta como eres' (translates as 'i like how you are'). i devote it to myself when i listen to it, telling myself that i will feel that way truly and deeply about myself one day again. i will.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

Morning, all!

Lo0p, I had forgotten the kiss. :-( sorry
As to the rest, with the exception of the name calling, I stand by my thoughts. I wasn't referring directly to you, Alexan. I'm really, really glad that you reached out to lo0p and know that you are in very good hands there.

There is A LOT of evidence that taking too much bac, and expecting some sort of magical response, is not just contraindicated, but effin' ridiculous, as well as dangerous in some cases.

I have some secrets I'd like to share:

I had a glass of wine and a beer yesterday. (The glass of wine was 'normal.' Maybe 4 ounces. Maybe. It looked like a sip in my ginormous wine glasses.) The first part of the glass was sublime. Seriously. I won't belabor the point, because I know many are still drinking against their will around here. Suffice it to say that it was exactly, exactly how red wine should smell and taste. Half way through the glass I realized I didn't want another sip, my thought was, "ugh. no more."

I drank the beer when I was contentedly cleaning and rearranging the furniture on my porch. (it looks pretty darn good, in case you were wondering.) It was hot. I wanted a beer. I might've had a soda, but there weren't any that were cold... The beer, too, was yummy, but I kept forgetting about it and finally a bee ended it's life in there. :upset: Hopefully it was drunk and happy when it died. (In other words, I hope it wasn't an alcoholic bee!)

When I went to bed I wondered what this means in the grand scheme of things. Should I take more bac? Increase my resolve for abstinence? Enjoy it, for goodness sakes???

When I left inpatient rehab and entered outpatient rehab 5 years ago I drank alcoholically almost immediately. Within the month, I think. While still in an outpatient program.

When I got sober in AA 15 or so years ago, I didn't actually drink alcoholically for a good long while... I drank occasionally and often moderately.

Those two experiences are enough to make me VERY wary about drinking at all. But this bac thing is a whole new world, a new experience unlike anything I've ever had. And I have NO response to drinking. There has been booze, good stuff, in the house for the whole journey. I can't remember the last time I had a drink, even one. I think I'll stick with 140mg/day, rather than freak out and play with the dosage. (very unlike me!)

Is it safe? Am I immune? Only time will tell, I suppose. In the meantime I'm continuing to read and get involved with AA. It's hard to do, because it takes me straight bac to that place I've forgotten. Not a bad thing, I suppose. Maybe. And certainly the only place I'm likely to help others, other than here.

(BTW, I was reflecting yesterday, and shared with my husband, the names of the people I've met and communicated directly with that have reached indifference. The number is frankly, astounding. Cheers, people, you are my heart of hearts. I love you and appreciate your support and kindness more than you will ever know. Except you might...When you pay it forward. cue the chorus of angels, mine is deafening. There isn't an emoticon to describe, so I'll use them all! :l:h:H:goodjob

I had a wonderful weekend. I'm ready to credit sobriety, I think, rather than bac alone, for the wonderful-ness of it. In part because Saturday wasn't so great. I was lazy. I slept for 2 hours midday. I was tired. I didn't really accomplish anything and was late for dinner with extended family. It was very normal. And in retrospect, really lovely.

The other 'secrets' will have to wait. I've got to get ready for the dreaded dentist. Tooth is officially coming out today, to be replaced with another! woop woop. sort of. With this exception: I think I'm going blonde. I know, I know. It's enough to rock the world. Sadly, unlike redhead, I'm not really one. And I feel like a change, to reflect more vividly the CHANGE! (I'm not really sure what color my hair actually is, honestly. But there's a good deal of gray in there, even though I'm only 25 at heart. And THAT will neva eva see the light of day...)

Ne

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

ti?trate verb /ˈtīˌtrāt/ 
titrated, past participle; titrated, past tense; titrates, 3rd person singular present; titrating, present participle

1.Ascertain the amount of a constituent in (a solution) by measuring the volume of a known concentration of reagent required to complete a reaction with it, typically using an indicator


2.Continuously measure and adjust the balance of (a physiological function or drug dosage)

The first time I looked it up I didn't see the second definition, just the first. So perhaps we're using titrate correctly? oops.

[Isolde]

Progress thread for ne

Ne/Neva Eva;1104840 wrote: ti?trate verb /ˈtīˌtrāt/ 
titrated, past participle; titrated, past tense; titrates, 3rd person singular present; titrating, present participle

1.Ascertain the amount of a constituent in (a solution) by measuring the volume of a known concentration of reagent required to complete a reaction with it, typically using an indicator


2.Continuously measure and adjust the balance of (a physiological function or drug dosage)

The first time I looked it up I didn't see the second definition, just the first. So perhaps we're using titrate correctly? oops.

Just wanted to point out for some the pronunciation of the word . That's a long i, people. TIE-trate. Sorry, I'm anal about grammar and pronunciation, etc. Passionate, you might say!

Thanks for posting the actual definition Karen!

[Isolde]

Progress thread for ne

I need to start getting ready for work right now, but just wanted to say that I know what you're feeling, re: having the occasional drink here and there. You know that I've been doing the same, and even though it never leads to me wanting more and I could really take it or leave it, I do question it sometimes. I'm going to post more about that in my own thread later today when I have a chance. Just wanted to chime in here and let you know that you're not alone in thinking about and analyzing it. :l

I know they're not your cup of tea Karen, but I feel compelled to post this Tool quote. More for me than for anything, concerning not just this, but every other thing in my life that I mentally pick apart! :H

Tool:Lateralus wrote:
Over-thinking, over-analyzing, separates the body from the mind.

Hope you have a fantabulous day!

[bleep]

Progress thread for ne

Ne, as always your updates are hard to respond to, although you post a lot of information.

Regarding your "turmoil" as to whether your level is fine or not, all I can say is that it's the level I find myself on, when on sufficient baclofen. A drink is a nice idea, more so in theory than in practice. Sometimes, the idea is good one though, and the drink slides down.

Despite listening to more Tool than I ever thought I would, courtesy of that thread a while back (!), the quote Isolde posted is extremely relevant. A bloody good quote actually, one that makes me want to track down the song. Stop thinking about it so much - if you want a drink, have one. If you want another, have one. If you etc... You'll see, as you already know, that indifference is real, just let it happen.

As always, best of luck. As it happens, I think the current arrangement of your porch chairs sucks, and you should completely rethink it.

[RudyB]

Progress thread for ne

i love you folks for making me laugh. thanks bleep and ne! i need this place.

[Lo0p]

Progress thread for ne

bleep;1104913 wrote: Despite listening to more Tool than I ever thought I would, courtesy of that thread a while back (!), the quote Isolde posted is extremely relevant. A bloody good quote actually, one that makes me want to track down the song. Stop thinking about it so much - if you want a drink, have one. If you want another, have one. If you etc... You'll see, as you already know, that indifference is real, just let it happen.
Your wish is my command good sir:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awYc9xvqnv0[/video]]YouTube - Lateralus lyrics - Tool - Lateralus

Tool: Lateralus wrote: Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
Red and yellow then came to be,
reaching out to me, lets me see.
As below so above and beyond I imagine,
drawn beyond the lines of reason.
Push the envelope. Watch it bend.

Over thinking, over analyzing,
separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.

Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
Red and yellow then came to be,
reaching out to me, lets me see.
There is so much more and it beckons me to look though to these,
infinite possibilities.
As below so above and beyond I imagine,
drawn outside the lines of reason.
Push the envelope. Watch it bend.

Over thinking, over analyzing,
separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, leaving opportunities behind.


Feed my will to feel this moment, urging me to cross the line.
Reaching out to embrace the random.
Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.

I embrace my desire to...
I embrace my desire to...
feel the rhythm,
to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow,
to feel inspired,
to fathom the power,
to witness the beauty,
to bathe in the fountain,
to swing on the spiral,
to swing on the spiral,
to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human.

With my feet upon the ground,
I lose myself between the sounds and open wide to suck it in.
I feel it move across my skin.
I'm reaching up and reaching out.
I'm reaching for the random or whatever will bewilder me,
whatever will bewilder me.

And following our will and wind,
we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out. Keep going.
Spiral out. Keep going.
Spiral out. Keep going.
Spiral out. Keep going.

If you can't stomach the sheer power of the music in this song (many people can't, I couldn't until I got used to it) here is someone who did a very beautiful cover of it on a piano:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOGCDc34m-4[/video]]YouTube - Lateralus (full version)- Tool Cover piano/vocal

His voice doesn't even hold a candle a candle to Maynard's, but honestly, you can't fault him for that.

I know, I know NE...you just love me for this. :l

[Bruunhilde]

Progress thread for ne

Thanks you guys for the several links, for the lyrics - the last one makes me think of Everlast, esp the John Cash song redo they redone. Only this is softer than the Everlast song. Also liked the piano version best of that Tool song. Tool - does that mean the guy I dated a couple years ago made an album? Full of shit, if so. At least in my mind. He was a tool and came to know it. Just kidding. :H

Drinking while "cured" is a constant question for me - I would LOVE to do that, and I try and it caves me usually. Isn't it unrealistic an expectation? I know you bac'sters are saying "dat dunt apply to me"...

I guess if you stay on high dose bac and the whole "rewiring" of your brain works (which I think OA decided it didn't for him cuz he's AF?) forever against doctors orders (what happens if your BP goes way up and you have to go off or you don't qualify for healthcare due to baclofen drug abuse?). Do the SE's reduce due to tolerance, or your brain is now fixed? I don't know, just thinking aloud, which I'm sure will be crushed mighty mighty by the fighty fighty bacsters unless there's a change in protocol in the meds forum. (shock upon shock).

All the dependency on bac to make you feel indifferent without using discipline and other tools - seems to me to be risky. Maybe I'm underestimating your other efforts - bac is such an effort for MOST of us, perhaps many lurking or not posting are doing it all and not getting the freedom they need. I am showing my true colors on the Bruun post in meds, and all my struggles. I know you bacsters show your struggles alot, but I think alot of people all over the forum feel unable to post due to the "hostile" environment (not my term) that keeps people from sharing. Can we all try and encourage the sharing and not the TTDPD? It does NOT work for all of us.

Another question, maybe this would be for you who have access to Dr L? How can you not take the supplements that are part of your chemical imbalance (supposedly proven by Biorecovery and Joan Larson) like aminos, like fish oil if you're celtic, or whatever else if you're another profile (many of us are two profiles if you read Seven Weeks to Sobriety or other books that are scientific and practical studies on AL and depression or both). To expect a med to establish you as "normal" seems to me to be asking too much. But it's what we all wish for. If wishes were fishes...

Sorry to ambush your outback Ne, but I know for sure you trimmed it a long time ago. Brazilian style, hopefully.

[Lo0p]

Progress thread for ne

Ne/Neva Eva;1104839 wrote: Lo0p, I had forgotten the kiss. :-( sorry
:wow: :upset:

Ne/Neva Eva;1104839 wrote: I stand by my thoughts.
Your thoughts, your sentiments...could you restate them again for me please, succinctly. I actually have time to devote to them in the next couple of days. I know, I know they are right there...are they changing?

Ne/Neva Eva;1104839 wrote: There is A LOT of evidence that taking too much bac, and expecting some sort of magical response, is not just contraindicated, but effin' ridiculous, as well as dangerous in some cases.

Sure, in some cases. In fact, too much bac, too soon is always bad. But what constitutes too much and too soon is different for everybody.

But too little, too late? The opposite can be just as dangerous!!

Have you forgotten paulslice?? Already?? Seriously? Where would he be today if he followed the "conventional wisdom" of this board and played it "safe". Would he be somewhere "safe" right now? I dunno (I doubt it), ask him. Ask his sister.

It's a goddamn shame the truth of his story isn't here because it went against the "conventional [fucking] wisdom" of this board and it's pathetic zephyrs to outright hurricanes about what is "PC" or qualifies neatly as "advice without being advice". My apologies to those who don't know what I'm talking about. We lost a gem of the true story of a man whose life was saved by immediate high dose baclofen thanks to a deceitful, raving, conniving lunatic we all lovingly know here by 3 names.

In my case, if I hadn't done what I did, I would be dead. I know this in my heart of hearts. I tried to commit suicide two nights before I first felt indifference. You've read the story: https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ml#post1060122.

I no longer feel guilty or shameful for telling people what I did, it's the truth.

I went to see Dr. Lawrence Doyle today for some routine stuff. He is the doctor I convinced to treat patients with baclofen that is the topic of this thread: https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ker-44075.html

Based on the research I left with him at that appointment last year he pulled a 180 on his former stance started prescribing at 90mg a day.

I asked him today how it was going with baclofen and his patients and he said: "I dunno, a lot of these patients never come back. I still have one guy on it."

So I said: "If you'd like, I can get you in contact with my doctor. He's treated many, many alcoholics successfully with high dose baclofen."

"No, that's okay. I've got my ear on the research through Stanford. There are a couple of guys that are really using it, though..." He sounded a little distant and uninterested.

If I went to him back in the fall of '09 and was prescribed baclofen under his guidance, I would not have seen December. I would not have been around to thank him, and my mother most certainly wouldn't have either. I can't imagine what she would've done if she ever found out the truth about what would've saved me.

In Alexan's case, (I hope he doesn't mind me paraphrasing him) there is no way he ever would've made it the "conventional" way or following the "conventional wisdom" on this site. If I hadn't stepped in and showed him what to do, who knows where he would've ended up. Ask him right now what he thinks.

I'm left wondering how many people failed or will fail because they did it or will do it the "wrong" way. What is the right way? How can you form so strong of an opinion on this?

Ne/Neva Eva;1104839 wrote: I have some secrets I'd like to share:

Aww...C'mon! I want to hear the secrets you don't want to share.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

Morning, peeps.
I've been exchanging emails with a bac-friend half a world away for a little while now. She doesn't participate here, but we were connected through a concerned friend of hers that has been on MWO.
The sea-change in her emails is profound. She doesn't remember the first one she sent! :H (sorry to call you out on that, my friend!) It was... Well, it made me laugh out loud. (Why are Americans and americanisms such an easy target???)
The one I received this morning? Moved me profoundly. Bac certainly can work wonders.
Anyway, she wants to participate, I think. I can't introduce her yet, because she doesn't understand that I can't share here what is shared in emails... However, if anyone wants a pen-pal in NZ, she'd like to hear from you. She's very cool. Lots of interesting stuff going on in her mind and in her life. PM or email me and I'll share her address.

Reg, GREAT song. Thanks.
Ruby, Can't wait for you to get started!
Is, I like Tool, a lot. I always feel like an interloper when I listen, though. But since I ordered all of their cd's in an effort to be cool/young/hip, I definitely listen pretty regularly. (My VERY young bff, however, takes exception to the fact that I think they are cool/young/hip! ) Great quote.
Bleep. hmmm. There is now a Ne-nook on the porch. Perfect chair, not too much sun, not too little. I can plug in the laptop and the tunes...snuggle with a good book and a glass of...tea! it's purrrrfect.
You'd be comfortable there, on the other side, where the guests can sit, and I'd make you a sandwich! And maybe some sweet tea, which is this noxious concoction of tea and tons of sugar that people are fond of in this part of my country.

Secrets/shmecrets. I can't remember what the rest of them were. My tooth hurts, that's the most prominent thing I've got going on.
The procedure was supposed to take a half hour. But, of course, there were complications. Two hours later I walked out to find a very bored husband.

The new Ne, on bac and relatively calm in the face of GRAVE danger (ie the dentist), with a half a valium, and one of the meditations that Redthread suggested, went through the whole thing rather effortlessly. The meditation seriously helped. When she pulled out a particularly dangerous and noisy instrument, I just turned up the volume. Thanks so much RedT.

I have my first appointment with a therapist today. Wish me luck, people. I'm not fond of the whole group of 'em. Just trying to do the next right thing... Even though I'm QUITE sure there is no need and no reason for me to seek out unbiased help from a professional since I'm perfectly capable and rational and reasonable in ALL things after spending the last 20-odd years struggling with, for and against alcoholism. Right?

Hope begins in the dark, the stubborn hope that if you just show up and try to do the right thing, the dawn will come. You wait and watch and work; you don't give up.
~Anne Lamott, bird by bird

If you've decided to try bac, or are in the midst of the journey, the right thing, in this case, is to just keep taking the pills. The rest will come.

Hiya lurkers and newbies!
:l
Ne

ps. My friend, drunk and angry I can relate to. You know, you all know, that I am pro-bac, but that I am not a bac-pusher. My friend, it could be time for you to try bac. I know you want to. It's really not nearly as scary as all the recent kerfuffle suggests. And I would know. I hope you'll let the thought just enter the realm of possibility. :l

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

DAMMIT! I missed the entire last page.

Geez.

Bruunhilde;1105208 wrote: Drinking while "cured" is a constant question for me - I would LOVE to do that, and I try and it caves me usually. Isn't it unrealistic an expectation? I know you bac'sters are saying "dat dunt apply to me"....
I've given this more thought than you know, Bruun. Directly related to you and your struggle. The short version is, No. It doesn't apply to you, or to anyone not taking baclofen. I'm not sure that it applies to me (I won't speak for the other bac-ees.) It might very well be an unreasonable expectation for *me* to drink occasionally, even very occasionally. BUT it might not. It doesn't do anything for me. It tastes good. I like it. No high, no buzz, no craving for more in the moment that I'm drinking or later...
BUT as I mentioned in the post yesterday, that's how I started on the path to drinking against my will lo those many years ago after achieving some measure of sobriety in AA. The answer is, I just don't know. But it doesn't feel dangerous or iffy at all...

Bruunhilde;1105208 wrote:

• I guess if you stay on high dose bac and the whole "rewiring" of your brain works (which I think OA decided it didn't for him cuz he's AF?)
• forever against doctors orders
• (what happens if your BP goes way up and you have to go off or you don't qualify for healthcare due to baclofen drug abuse?).
• Do the SE's reduce due to tolerance, or your brain is now fixed?
• ... which I'm sure will be crushed mighty mighty by the fighty fighty bacsters unless there's a change in protocol in the meds forum. (shock upon shock).:cool

• That's the theory. Most people, however, do NOT stay on high-dose-bac. I don't think I'll be an exception to that rule. I just think it takes some time.I won't ever again presume to know what OA is doing or has done if it isn't published for public consumption.I'm not taking it against doctor's orders. I'm taking it with doctor's orders.My BP is normal. If it wasn't I wouldn't be able to take bac.There are no cases of bac-drug-abuse. It's not a drug one can abuse. Having to decrease dosage in order to avoid symptoms is not addiction and the same is true for just about every drug out there that one stays on long term.The SEs reduced for me when my bac intake reduced. Also, I suppose, it normalizes. Also, they were different at different levels. Also, this is one of THE BIG questions that needs to be addressed and dealt with by professionals, imo. My brain feels fixed.I'm determined that my little part of the meds threads, and what I contribute, continue to be supportive while I explore what all this means to me. I've not been perfect, by any stretch, but I'll continue to work on it. I really appreciate your thoughts.

Bruunhilde;1105208 wrote: All the dependency on bac to make you feel indifferent without using discipline and other tools - seems to me to be risky. Maybe I'm underestimating your other efforts - bac is such an effort for MOST of us, perhaps many lurking or not posting are doing it all and not getting the freedom they need. I am showing my true colors on the Bruun post in meds, and all my struggles. I know you bacsters show your struggles alot, but I think alot of people all over the forum feel unable to post due to the "hostile" environment (not my term) that keeps people from sharing. Can we all try and encourage the sharing and not the TTDPD? It does NOT work for all of us.

Bac takes discipline and A LOT of tools. I've never had to dig deeper or be more committed. I think one of the reasons I'm able to handle the turmoil in my life right now is because I KNOW what I'm made of having gone through the experience of finding indifference on bac.
Bac is an effort for almost everyone, including the ones for whom it seems effortless. As is staying sober after achieving indifference.
Sister, if this thread isn't full of my true colors, and all of my struggles and doubts and quirkiness and craziness, I can't imagine what would be!
Taking The Damn Pills is a fundamental, really the only, thing that makes a difference if one decides and is able to use bac. That one is probably here to stay, at least in the bac threads.

Bruunhilde;1105208 wrote: Another question, maybe this would be for you who have access to Dr L? How can you not take the supplements that are part of your chemical imbalance (supposedly proven by Biorecovery and Joan Larson) like aminos, like fish oil if you're celtic, or whatever else if you're another profile (many of us are two profiles if you read Seven Weeks to Sobriety or other books that are scientific and practical studies on AL and depression or both). To expect a med to establish you as "normal" seems to me to be asking too much. But it's what we all wish for.

It IS asking too much. It does what is promised: If one takes it (and is able to continue) then one is very likely to reach a point where one is indifferent to alcohol, and no longer craves alcohol. In my case it offers more than that. (anti-anxiety and antidepressant) But I also have many other tools that I employ, and mentors for different aspects of trying to navigate sobriety.
The supplements? Different purpose. I wasn't trying to get healthy. I was trying to get to indifference.
I didn't take them because I didn't know what affect they would have on the bac in my bloodstream and brain. It was so difficult for me that I had to eliminate all of the other possible interactions in order to concentrate fully on bac. I take most of them now, based on your advice and on the suggestions from RedThread.

ALL that aside, Doggygirl has what I want, she achieved what I was looking for, without ever taking a single milligram of baclofen. And when you and I met, oh so long ago! You were looking for your way out. Remember? Not baclofen.

Love you very much, Bruun.
K/Ne

Lo0p I'll get to you later. Glad Alexan found you and vice versa. Love tool. :-*

[beatle]

Progress thread for ne

Lo0p, this says it all...

Note: No editing was done here... just cutting a few lines in between sentences

Lo0p;1105209 wrote:
In fact, too much bac, too soon is always bad. But what constitutes too much and too soon is different

for everybody.

But too little, too late? The opposite can be just as dangerous!!

I no longer feel guilty or shameful for telling people what I did, it's the truth.

I'm left wondering how many people failed or will fail because they did it or will do it the "wrong" way. What is the right way?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

Okay. I'm in. I'm not sure that this is the right thread for it...

Do you think it's possible to have this discussion (an actual dialogue) on the consolidated thread? Particularly given the paper that was just published. Or on the titration thread? Both places are where this could happen that people might actually find it and glean some info from it.

I'll copy and paste wherever you think is best, but page whatever of this thread is likely to get lost...

I hesitate to call any way "wrong" because well, who the hell knows? BUT, hmmm... I'd very much like to discuss it.

Good day! Bac to the dentist for me.