Progress thread for ne

[Bruunhilde]

Progress thread for ne

PS Ne, I should have mentioned in my post that my words weren't directed at you personally, just at the idea and practice of high dose baclofen anywhere. For example, I KNOW your bp is normal, etc.

xxoo

[Doggygirl]

Progress thread for ne

Just poppin' in to say hi Ne. You are pondering some important stuff I think. You already know my thoughts on the drink front so I'll shut up already. Or do I get two votes? I am from Chicago where we do that sort of thing....

Hope you are recovering in good shape from the dentist. :egad: I need to get the info on the meditation thing you used.

Nighty night..

DG

[Bruunhilde]

Progress thread for ne

• I don't think bac is a "cure" if you still want to drink "occasionally" because that means you are normal. No acoholic is "normal" or we wouldn't even have this question/issue. Wanting to drink is a habit unresolved. I think many of you are close to it, but you give in in to AL drinking on occasion (many bingers like UKB will tell you that's not normal, perhaps). Wanting to drink while knowing you're using a high dose drug to achieve that is not "normal". Sorry fighters/haters, try not to drag me through the drink for this, I'm already doing that. Whether it feels dangerous or iffy eclipses the fact that AL ruined years of your life.I'm sorry I cannot post the rest bkz I cannot type. I took my nightly 25mg of bac and seems to take three hours for a paragraph, which I know many of you relate to. Again, in parting, I am not addressing NE or anyone in particular, just stating thoughts.
  
  
  Ne/Neva Eva;1105321 wrote: DAMMIT! I missed the entire last page.
  
  Geez.
  
  
  
  I've given this more thought than you know, Bruun. Directly related to you and your struggle. The short version is, No. It doesn't apply to you, or to anyone not taking baclofen. I'm not sure that it applies to me (I won't speak for the other bac-ees.) It might very well be an unreasonable expectation for *me* to drink occasionally, even very occasionally. BUT it might not. It doesn't do anything for me. It tastes good. I like it. No high, no buzz, no craving for more in the moment that I'm drinking or later...
  BUT as I mentioned in the post yesterday, that's how I started on the path to drinking against my will lo those many years ago after achieving some measure of sobriety in AA. The answer is, I just don't know. But it doesn't feel dangerous or iffy at all...
  
  
  
• That's the theory. Most people, however, do NOT stay on high-dose-bac. I don't think I'll be an exception to that rule. I just think it takes some time.
• I won't ever again presume to know what OA is doing or has done if it isn't published for public consumption.
• I'm not taking it against doctor's orders. I'm taking it with doctor's orders.My BP is normal. If it wasn't I wouldn't be able to take bac.There are no cases of bac-drug-abuse. It's not a drug one can abuse. Having to decrease dosage in order to avoid symptoms is not addiction and the same is true for just about every drug out there that one stays on long term.The SEs reduced for me when my bac intake reduced. Also, I suppose, it normalizes. Also, they were different at different levels. Also, this is one of THE BIG questions that needs to be addressed and dealt with by professionals, imo. My brain feels fixed.I'm determined that my little part of the meds threads, and what I contribute, continue to be supportive while I explore what all this means to me. I've not been perfect, by any stretch, but I'll continue to work on it. I really appreciate your thoughts.

Bac takes discipline and A LOT of tools. I've never had to dig deeper or be more committed. I think one of the reasons I'm able to handle the turmoil in my life right now is because I KNOW what I'm made of having gone through the experience of finding indifference on bac.
Bac is an effort for almost everyone, including the ones for whom it seems effortless. As is staying sober after achieving indifference.
Sister, if this thread isn't full of my true colors, and all of my struggles and doubts and quirkiness and craziness, I can't imagine what would be!
Taking The Damn Pills is a fundamental, really the only, thing that makes a difference if one decides and is able to use bac. That one is probably here to stay, at least in the bac threads.



It IS asking too much. It does what is promised: If one takes it (and is able to continue) then one is very likely to reach a point where one is indifferent to alcohol, and no longer craves alcohol. In my case it offers more than that. (anti-anxiety and antidepressant) But I also have many other tools that I employ, and mentors for different aspects of trying to navigate sobriety.
The supplements? Different purpose. I wasn't trying to get healthy. I was trying to get to indifference.
I didn't take them because I didn't know what affect they would have on the bac in my bloodstream and brain. It was so difficult for me that I had to eliminate all of the other possible interactions in order to concentrate fully on bac. I take most of them now, based on your advice and on the suggestions from RedThread.

ALL that aside, Doggygirl has what I want, she achieved what I was looking for, without ever taking a single milligram of baclofen. And when you and I met, oh so long ago! You were looking for your way out. Remember? Not baclofen.

Love you very much, Bruun.
K/Ne

Lo0p I'll get to you later. Glad Alexan found you and vice versa. Love tool. :-*

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

Just a shout out to tell you all how much you mean to me, and how incredible this journey is... I'm glad you're all along for the ride.

(You too newbies and lurkers)

See you in the morning!
Love,
Ne

[bleep]

Progress thread for ne

Bruunhilde;1105629 wrote:

• I don't think bac is a "cure" if you still want to drink "occasionally" because that means you are normal. No acoholic is "normal" or we wouldn't even have this question/issue. Wanting to drink is a habit unresolved. I think many of you are close to it, but you give in in to AL drinking on occasion (many bingers like UKB will tell you that's not normal, perhaps). Wanting to drink while knowing you're using a high dose drug to achieve that is not "normal". Sorry fighters/haters, try not to drag me through the drink for this, I'm already doing that. Whether it feels dangerous or iffy eclipses the fact that AL ruined years of your life.

...

Bruun, where was that quote originally taken from? At first read it made sense to me, but the poster is making one error that makes their subsequent argument irrelevant. I don't think we are alcoholics anymore. If that's true (not saying it is, just how it feels to me), then the rest falls away.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

Morning, folks.

One of the problems with sleeping very soundly is that I don't wake up in the middle of the night thinking about what I'm going to write... It's often what is weighing heavily on my mind and it used to be that I couldn't get out from under it, or even process it, until I shared it here.
Now I sleep like a happy infant and don't have any pressing concerns! (Despite the fact that in two short days I will be unemployed. Rather than causing consternation, I'm a bit elated at the prospect. Though the vision I had of writing a novel on a brand-spanking-new MacBookPro is fading... Don't you think it would be easier, a given even, to write a novel on a new Mac? And no, we're not rich. On the contrary, we've been broke enough times that this is no biggie! :H)

I had my first appointment with a therapist yesterday. (This is actually relevant to what Bruun and bleep posted.)
I almost lied to him about my drinking. In fact, I did lie. Then I said, "No wait. I lied. I have had drinks on a couple of occasions since the beginning of February." And then I told him the truth. That I drank against my will and got drunk on two occasions. Then I told him that I've had drinks on other occasions that were by choice. That these consisted of a glass of wine, or a beer, and that there were no lasting consequences... No piper to pay, so to speak.

He summed it up toward the end of our hour this way: It's black and white. Relapse or recovery. He said that he would count a glass of wine as a relapse, even if I didn't. He also said that I was trying to navigate a gray area, and that he would help me.

He implied that there had to be definitions of the gray area, or perhaps that's what I took away from it. That's a very good point, isn't it?

I liked him. He's got frizzy gray hair, and looks a little like a nutty professor. He seems like he's not going to be bamboozled by my bullshit. He also seems as though he's open to the idea of helping me figure this all out, for me. He's also a small town therapist who has, "heard of bac" but doubts that anyone in the area will supervise the administration of it.

He asked all the right questions, and I had to fully admit that there was much to be wary, or at least sceptical about...

My prescribing shrink is in another state, is not an addiction expert, has never seen me, for instance. My husband is an alcoholic. My life looks rather chaotic from the outside. There is no protocol, research or information to bac up what we're doing here. In fact, the docs in the US that are prescribing this only do so at ineffectual low doses. And finally, I still haven't gone 30 days without a drink.
:H:H:H

Despite all this I *know* that it works exactly as promised. I *know* that I am not one drink away from destruction.

He asked me why I thought I was an alcoholic. I told him. I think I have a chemical imbalance in my brain. I think I am predisposed genetically and nurtured into drinking as a solution to all things, since many of my family members also have the disease. I told him I thought, I *know* it's a disease and not a spiritual malady.

A lot of pretty strong assertions from an alcoholic woman who hasn't gone 30 days without a drink and is likely (from his p.o.v.) completely delusional. ha!

Add to that the fact that I'm relatively serene and pretty optimistic... ("Did you actually register for school?" he asked. "I did! And even applied for financial aid!!!" I replied.)

A part of me felt like I wanted to explain it all to him. OA, the amygdala, the theory. The changes I've experienced. Why this is SO different. But you know what? whateva. THAT is most definitely not the point. I would like to talk about the ways in which I can improve my 'issues.' My automatic response to things that frustrate or anger me. The irrational fears I have of men and authority. (based, ftr, on tried and true experience...) No need to get into hypotheticals and analyticals and all the other bullshit that spins around in this mind of mine. (and ours, my fellow bac-ees, in some cases.)

I'm just trying to set this up to continue to be healthy and happy. That means that I need someone to trust if I go off the rails. He's it, for better or for worse. So I've decided to give him 90 days. lol. and the next time we meet, I'll try to "put on my listening ears." Because this time I was too busy thinking about how to explain to him about bac. I don't think he needs to know that in order to help me with the other stuff.

Now. As to the drinking and taking bac and whether or not the two cancel each other or this is a cure or salvation or God in a pill or an addiction to replace the addiction. No offense to anyone, but, again, whatever.

I KNOW I'm not addicted to bac. It doesn't make me feel good, though it has. It doesn't make me feel bad, though it has.

Drinking is not dangerous, atm. I can't say what the future holds about that... I won't defend it, but I won't be defensive about it either. There is no explaining it to the people who don't take bac. And I have yet, as I've made clear, to make up my own mind about it.

Taking it for the near future or the rest of my life makes no nevermind. It ... helps me in the way that wellbutrin/zoloft/prozac/bupropion/celexia/cymbalta/fish oil/vitamin B/exercise/diet never have been able to do. (That's only a very partial list, ftr. And I've never been diagnosed with anything other than depression and ADHD. which was a bullshit diagnosis, also ftr.)

It also makes me not an alcoholic anymore.

The rest remains to be seen, right? Still a guinea pig. Still trying to suss it out for myself. In the meantime, though, my friends, I will set it all up the best way that I know how: Line up the solutions so that there are back-ups for my bac-ups in place so I don't EVER HAVE TO GO BAC. (not sorry for shouting. I'd like to shout that from the rooftops.)

I know this is a tome... Don't care. (but sorry) I have one final thought.

Last night I read to my (sober!) husband some of the emails and pms I've received in the last 3 or 4 days. A couple of these are from people that are not involved in MWO, but are taking bac and finding the results astounding. We were BOTH moved to tears. (alright, he just got misty. He'd probably be pretty annoyed if I said he cried. lol)

It works, friends. It's worth it. ALL of it.

I hope it's a content-filled day full of contentment for you all.
xo
Ne

[bleep]

Progress thread for ne

Wow.

[bleep]

Progress thread for ne

Sorry Ne, couldn't resist, and it was my first thought.

I saw a shrink for the first time in my life, coincidentally just as I began baclofen. I would caution against letting baclofen become the focus, as it did with me. To be fair, it was my only focus at the time, so was all I wanted to talk about, but as time went on, and he saw the change in me, it soon became all he wanted to talk about. It ended up with him not charging me anymore, and we would sit and discuss protocols and treatments, none of which he ever listened to. It's easy, given the life-changing nature of baclofen, for it to overwhelm the therapy, so be on the lookout for that.

That's all the experience I have with shrinks, so can't add more than that. Best of luck with yours!

[redhead77]

Progress thread for ne

I would like to mention that we are still alcoholics. We may be taking a medication (in crazy doses), to manage the chronic nature of the disease, but it doesn't take the disease away. It is no different than any other long term chronic disease i.e., hypertension, diabetes, asthma. The underlying disease mechanism is still present. If most of us take away the baclofen, we will revert to our old selves. At least that's what I'm witnessing with the anecdotal stories.

This is something I have been thinking about a lot. If I want to come down from my switch dose, and get to a low dose of bac, it may not be wise for me to test the waters. If I wasn't on bac, it would be rare for me to drink one glass of wine. Yes, I'm on my switch dose now, and I was still able to drink too much one night. Its happened to many of us. People who are on low doses like Sunny, don't drink at all. They are abstinent. These are things I'm mulling over in my mind. I know you are too.

I'm glad you've decided not to waste your time explaining bac to the therapist. A therapist who is 12 step based, is going to have a hard time understanding this. Most therapists are 12 step based, since the most used model for alcohol recovery is 12 step. Explaining bac in a 12 step society, to anyone not taking it in high doses will be a hard sell.

I hope he doesn't think you're delusional for your belief that this is a disease. It does have a foundation of genetics and faulty brain chemistry, in many of us. That and quite a few other things. Alcoholism is certainly multifaceted. If the therapist alludes to anything else, I wouldn't waste my time talking to him about anything. I'm sure you're already on the same page there.

[bleep]

Progress thread for ne

Red, I respectfully disagree. As per wikipedia:

"Alcoholism is a disabling addictive disorder. It is characterized by compulsive and uncontrolled consumption of alcohol despite its negative effects on the drinker's health, relationships, and social standing"

This no longer applies. At all. Given, that is because I am taking high dose baclofen, but I plan to continue to take it. I hoping for the "re-wiring" effect to take place over time, but am happy to keep taking it if it doesn't.

Although you raise a good argument. I'm going to have to think about this a little more. I have been happy saying I am no longer an alcoholic until now.

[Chi]

Progress thread for ne

Please don't anybody take this the wrong way as I know therapy helps many, many people.... but I am an anti-therapy person myself. I just know too many therapists that are wacko, imo. I'm not their patient, I just happen to know them in real life, and I shutter to think they tell other people how to deal with their problems. Just keep in mind therapists are mere humans too, and nobody knows a person better than they know themselves.... so trust yourself, first.

[Chi]

Progress thread for ne

bleep I think the rewiring naturally takes place as drinking is reduced and stopped with baclofen. I feel this has happened with me over the last year. I also think it is a slow process. I don't expect it to be a quick fix, as I didn't get that way over night. Habits and behavior can be right up there with craving, imo. Baclofen takes care of the craving, and for me staying on baclofen is helping me take care of the rest.

[missyabby1]

Progress thread for ne

Yeah Ne and your frizzy haired therapist. Mine is young, quite impressionable and open to a bit of "critique" of his( "oh my god! body language". Wasn't terribly interested in my medication at all, which at the time, was being an absolute miracle for me. In fact I got quite annoyed with that...and vowed that, at the next session, I would just put him right about the whole thing!

He was far more interested about my life story, my current relationship with my alcoholic husband and the threat that posed to my sobriety. We, at one stage, had a major "set to" about this, whereas I managed to scare him off talking about the "said protagonist" cos it "just made things worse for me"....silly me, silly him. I think I said words to the effect " if we keep talking about that subject, I will just leave here and get drunk". Poor guy, obviously addiction therapists don't like that sort of talk! Doesn't look good on the "success" ratio.

Anyways, after that little distraction, we decided to just get down to the nitty gritty of it all.............warts and all. Phew, what a relief after a bit of tooing and throwing, as to who was going to get the better of all this.........being a past therapist knew the dance intimately. I now trust him and his judgement and his honesty about my situation. He is a good therapist, after me being scarey and all. He knows his stuff. He admitted his agenda.....wanting to fix the world....and that was refreshing.

I was the instigator of trying to get sober with my husband........he wasn't. I was the instigator of taking the Campral and having relative sobriety for three months.........he wasn't ...........I was the instigator of going to an addiction therapist.....he wasn't. I give him his daily pills........he doesn't. He wouldn't "mist up" over emails or messages,(in fact I don't get many) at all. In fact, he just likes the status quo.......always has. He is as fearful of uncomfortable feelings as I am..just more so.

I have always had an uncomfortable feeling about your love affair with bac Karen, and I may be being totally out of line here, and I am sure you will let me know:H, but anyway I wish you the best, as I do everyone here (including the totally British Murph..am a Yorkshire girl from way bac).............Your life story maybe totally different from mine but I know when I need to stop "expecting so little" and start "deserving so much better"..............just got to unlearn all that shit.......then I may be sober again.

Missy:h

[redhead77]

Progress thread for ne

bleep;1105759 wrote: Red, I respectfully disagree. As per wikipedia:

"Alcoholism is a disabling addictive disorder. It is characterized by compulsive and uncontrolled consumption of alcohol despite its negative effects on the drinker's health, relationships, and social standing"

This no longer applies. At all. Given, that is because I am taking high dose baclofen, but I plan to continue to take it. I hoping for the "re-wiring" effect to take place over time, but am happy to keep taking it if it doesn't.

Although you raise a good argument. I'm going to have to think about this a little more. I have been happy saying I am no longer an alcoholic until now.

We are taking a drug to manage the symptoms of the disease. It does not mean we don't have the the underlying disease. I do wonder if staying on this drug for say the 18 months at the switch dose, that has been recommended to me, will change me forever. Only time will tell. I believe I will be on this for life. I would prefer not to be on 200 mg/d. I would like my lifetime maintenance dose to be closer to the FDA studied 80mg/d. Whether I can do that or not, is once again a time will tell thing. I'm not sure that I will be able to get to 80 mg/d or close, and drink moderately. As much as I want to be normal, I'm not sure if I ever can be.

That's why I love you Bleepster. I appreciate that you'll consider my argument and you never attack.

[Bruunhilde]

Progress thread for ne

bleep;1105650 wrote: Bruun, where was that quote originally taken from? At first read it made sense to me, but the poster is making one error that makes their subsequent argument irrelevant. I don't think we are alcoholics anymore. If that's true (not saying it is, just how it feels to me), then the rest falls away.

That was a typo, sorry. What I meant to say but was obviously struggling alot last night was that alcoholics have a chemical imbalance in their brains and if you have to stay on high dose baclofen to not drink, that's not a cure. If however you can go off after your brain is rewired, and not be tempted or care about alcohol, I would go for that being called a cure. Although I'd still be curious about all the chemistry, was it fixed, if not, what happened?

We're still too early in to know whether bac is a cure if there are only a few cases where people go OFF it and are still indifferent.