Progress thread for ne

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

You can find some (old!) information here. Some of it has changed (in terms of titration protocol) but much is still the same.

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ight=Dr.+Levin

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ight=Dr.+Levin

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

And this one in case you're close to one of these locations!

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ion-47247.html

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

suneelca;1283581 wrote:
Ne / Neva -- why are you trying to drop below 130mg? Thought you were having no / minimal SEs? This is what happens when I don't check in more regularly ... how quickly one loses touch!

I mostly want to test the waters, Sune. I've been on HDB for 18 months! I'm curious about what it does other than the obvious--

A couple of things happened last night that make me a little nervous though. I was in twilight sleep and sort of thinking/dreaming about hanging a chandelier. (This is related to real life! I have a chandelier to take down...) Suddenly my thoughts took a sharp turn and suddenly my husband was hanging it. And he was teetering from a banister way high up and fell. It was so alarming and sad and horrifying that I almost burst into tears.
The second thing that happened is that a little later I was dreaming/thinking about the house we just put an offer on. I pictured us, with friends, in the backyard celebrating. Everyone had beer. The beer was not peripheral, it was definitely integral to the scene. Very weird. Not because everyone else had a drink. We regularly entertain and always serve booze. But because it was a 'thing'.

Add to it that we don't ever celebrate with booze anymore. I might have a great glass of champagne (if I'm not too cheap!) with dinner (very occasionally) just because. But I/we refuse to use booze to mark milestones. You know?

I'm not craving or thinking about booze. Every time I think I am I realize a while after the fact that I have a pantry full of liquor, beer and wine and I could have easily had a drink. But this is different...Anxiety? something. We'll see...

[spacebebe01]

Progress thread for ne

I went for about a week a while ago and dreamt about drinking every single night, it was awful and very realistic to what happenend in my drinking, then they just stopped happening, Ive got no clue why this happened it just did, maybe something subconscious, there must be stuff in my brain, memories and emotions that will come back I think from all the years I spent drinking and not living well, then to just suddenly be sober it must be a shock to the system albeit a good one.

[Bruunhilde]

Progress thread for ne

Ne, you're putting an offer on a house! That's fantastic! Congrats, I hope you get it. Its a whole new adventure, for sure.

[RedThread12]

Progress thread for ne

Hey, Ne:

I, too, continue to have unbelievably realistic "dreams" that are totally integrated with "real life" circumstances. My bac dose is between 90-120mg/day.

Fortunately, I guess, I have always , although not as frequently, had extraordinary dreams - so much so that, over the years, I have delved into the subject of "lucid dreaming" to try to figure out how to deal with my night-time being as "real" as my day-time. Sometimes its evident - like when my father died and I had a vivid dream about a conversation with him and said, "Wait a minute . . . you're dead!" Or when one of my teachers, who died several years ago, explained that she was coming to me in a dream.

These bac dreams are quite a challenge. With all the traveling around I've done in the past months, and having vivid, explicit dreams about exactly what is happening in my life, it often takes me a while to figure out what bed I am in, in whose house, and who is sleeping in the same house with me - or not.

And I have, a few times, even with bac, known that I was dreaming. And I sometimes can change the dream to fly, or float, or other cool things. Did you see "Inception?" If not, I highly recommend it. My own lucid dreams, although not as complex, have had a lot of elements that movie describes.

So I've taken on these bizarre nigh-time excursions as a challenge, rather than being overwhelmed. And yes, I agree, they get very, very weird and very, very real.

The teacher I studied with last summer in Thailand, who is a close friend and translator for the Dalai Lama, endorses waking up to the realization that we are dreaming, while we're dreaming, a powerful practice for spiritual growth. Maybe like a parallel to waking up to the illusions of life while we're living it?

I remember feeling panicked when my ex and I bought the house I still live in today, back in 1995.Totally understand THAT feeling. Hope it works out well, and that you and Ed enjoy many happy un-drunk years in an abode of your own. It's a pain in the ass to own a home, AND it's a wonderful, grounding thing.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

Space--I think I had a transition to living fully in sobriety that I have since forgotten about. Mostly what I remember now is the absolute sheer JOY at finding myself not consumed by need to consume. But when I read the Nal/AB thread it brings back very clear memories of the sorts of things your are referring to here. It's been a little over a year and I've completely forgotten that it was so challenging at times! I completely relate to whomever said that they are trying to figure out who they are now...I kept trying on different things. Isolde furnished me with music, for instance. And Lo0p with dietary and exercise advice. I tried a couple of churches, and a dance class. All after solicitations on MWO about what I should do and who I should be!
Anyway. Turns out I sort of figured it out. I still like some of the songs I found, and use some of Lo0p's tools, too. The churches and the dance class were not for me! My conundrums are much more tangible now, and less...ephemeral.

And obviously, that thinking about booze thing isn't completely gone. Or perhaps it's a function of too little bac? Time will tell...

Which brings me to this 'saha' world, RedT. The illusory perception of our 'samsara'. Both of which keep resonating in different ways as I try to figure out how to use Right Speech on this path. And figure out what is real...Flying, for sure, though my husband does not agree. (Did I mention he's doing an 8 seek Jon Kabat Zinn seminar? Gotta love that man.) EDIT: I meant 8 week, but 8 seek works too! :H
Clarity continues to unfold. I hope, for God's sake. I was really missing it. In all of the ways that that sentence can be interpreted.

And Bruun! Thanks!!! Very exciting and daunting...And grounding? (waddaya mean I can't move out when I get tired of it? And who the hell is going to fix the disposal or mow the lawn??? yipes!)

Holy Shite, people (cussing in British makes me smile) I am so damn overwhelmed with homework and life that I can't see over the weeds with a ladder. ( Windy.)
Doggygirl if you happen by, you'll know you're not alone! wth were we thinking? School is...aaaargh.

[GingerDust]

Progress thread for ne

You might find yourself missing the relative freedom of renting (especially when it comes to repairs and yard work), but it's worth it to have your very own space, IMO. Congratulations! I hope you get it.

[windycitylady]

Progress thread for ne

Ne, I'm glad you can show me that I WILL figure out who the hell I am outside of an alcoholic, and that I/we can remind you how crappy early sobriety can be at times! All the progress you've made really inspires and motivates me.
Isn't it funny though how positive life changes can still be huge stressors? I'm so happy for you and Ed. I hope you get the house. What awesome tangible evidence that would be of your guys' progress!
Peek over the weeds if you can, keep your eyes on the prize.
Hopefully I'll be bitching with you and DG about homework soon!

[Doggygirl]

Progress thread for ne

"Can't see over the weeds with a ladder." :H Yes, that about sums it up for me too! AGGGHHH!!! What was I thinking? All I can do right now is chant "7 more weeks. 7 more weeks."

And then....what was I thinking when I said "yes I will be your volunteer coordinator" for this event????? HERO HELPS | A Community's Public Health Response to the Growing Number of Drug Overdose Deaths

I need to learn to 1) be realistic and 2) say no.

(but I love all this stuff so it's really HARD to 1) be realistic and 2) say no!!!! :H)

That is all.

Hey I happend by after seeing your thread about your friend. I am really really sorry to hear of yet another victim of alcohol. :l

DG

[RedThread12]

Progress thread for ne

Wow . . . you're giving me goose bumps.

You in school. Ed in MBSR. Both of you in a new house, maybe; dealing with death, up-close; and :h Ne, taking it in. Taking it all in, meeting life without AL, in all its wonder and ferociousness. Sucks, huh? :H I'm sorry . . . my mind is just twisted in a weird way, and I can't find, or maybe there aren't, words to convey how your continuing story, and willingness to share it, makes a difference for us all.

I have been spending time the past week with a "mentor" and friend of mine whose partner was recently brutally stabbed and murdered. Someone caught it all on their iPhone and posted it on YouTube. My friend coaches "The Work;" is a grief counselor, after serving many years as director of a local hospice; and is recognized nationally as a speaker dealing with grief. What an incredible experience this is, for our entire community. As far as I can tell, there really is no reconciliation of what seems to make sense, and what is LIFE!

Onward! :l

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

One of the unforeseen consequences of falling asleep sober every night is that I figured out that my upstairs neighbors have problems...Unfortunately tend to be address them in the middle of the night, after the bars close. So it's 3am and Charlie decided to slam the front door loud enough that it woke the dog...And here I am! (Keep in mind that this is a hundred year old stone building with 11ft ceilings. They are LOUD. feckin knuckleheads.) (Of course, it also makes me wonder what they heard back in the day...)

Memorial service this evening. It's just for family. And me. I am...hmmm. I am unclear. I was really hoping that I would have some clarity about it when I woke. Didn't happen. RedT, I think I'd like to chat today. Hope you're around.

Thanks guys, for your comments. Ginger, I am really looking forward to being able to knock down walls! Really! The yard work not so much. The disposal? well...My landlords aren't the greatest so we actually do a bunch of that stuff ourselves. Or I call my dad in. When he found out the house we are interested in is 100 years old he sent me a thoughtful email reminding me how busy he is these days. :H

Windy, Not to be all blaaaaaaah about the whole sobriety thing (because you know I'm not!) but I am not so sure that it changes all that much. Life is still life. It's pretty awesome, though, to be living it on my terms. Good, motivating music helps me a lot. Really. It's HUGE now and has been a huge part of helping me channel my...energy. And keep my eyes firmly on the prize. I'm looking forward to listening to Albini. If his music is anything like his words, it's going to be fun. Post-punk though? hmmm. we'll see.

DG-Man I am not loving school right now. Right now it sucks. But when I finish writing this damn paper this morning, after I meet with the study group for a group project later this morning, and then take a nap so I can start the next round of intense mind-numbing (okay, but still very interesting) homework due tonight at midnight, I will feel better. Which is not to say, Windy, that it isn't all woop-woop, joy-joy. It is! you should try it! and :H At the very least it is better than working. hmmm. Maybe. Okay, not always.

I'm going to try to figure out a way to post a picture of the house we like.

I'm also cleaning up loose ends...Because life is unpredictable and I've been avoiding stuff I need to take care of. To that end, I'm going to dredge up an old post and respond to it. Not looking for confrontation/kerfuffle, and God knows I am not eager for more condemnation. But the questions loom out there and should have a response.

Peace out!

[spacebebe01]

Progress thread for ne

Ne, congrats on the buying your very own home, what does it feel like to be all grown up

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

For the sake of clarity, and succinct discussion, I'm just going to take this a piece at a time.

Ne/Neva Eva;1267713 wrote:
If you take the medication, if you take enough of it, and for long enough, you'll stop drinking against your will. Everything leading up to that point is transient and frankly moot once the deed is done.


1267864 wrote: What you are ignoring is the fact that the deed is never done and that most people need to work for a living. They need to function in life. Even if someone, and it has happened repeatedly, takes enough time off work to get to switch, most people can not stay there indefinitely without risking jobs, risking safety, even risking lives. The "deed" is never done, and Dr L would agree with that since he prescribes staying at switch dose for life.

I did have the same concerns you are expressing when I tried baclofen unsuccessfully two or three times. That is why I think it's so important to take it slowly. To take the medication reasonably. But to your points directly:

If what you are referring to is drinking, the deed is indeed done. I don't drink against my will anymore, ever.
I worked while I titrated up.
I only know of one person off of the top of my head who took significant time off of work. (And it takes time. Not a week or two of vacation, or a long weekend. Months.) That person is Redhead77. Her experience is on her thread. https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ead-48066.html
We could ask her, too. If there is someone else you have in mind, I suppose we could ask him/her, too.

I function in life. Better than I ever have before. To be totally clear, I function much better with the correct amount of medication in my system. This was 200mg for the last several months. I don't have side effects. There is a thread dedicated to this topic, as well. https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ing-53903.html

I did not and would not stay at the point where I found indifference. I would never suggest that as a course of action or a goal. My own experience was that the side effects were worse below 100mgs and in the high 200mgs, than at 320mg. But it's unreasonable to think that I would stay there without finding out how little I can take and still stay sober, without craving or underlying, debilitating anxiety.

As to what Dr. Levin would agree or disagree with, I can't say. I suppose we could ask him. That would probably be the best thing to do, rather than assuming what his response might be.
As to his recommendation about staying at the switch dose...I haven't asked him directly about that since October/November '09. I don't remember his response well enough to quote him. I did post it on here on a thread related to just that. (I don't remember which one. Maybe here: https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ight=Dr.+Levin)

I don't know why he says that. I don't agree. It's not just the side effects. It's also this very important fact:

I haven't met or heard of anyone, not once, who stayed at their highest dose indefinitely.

1267864 wrote: If you believe everything you said above, you had no good reason to decrease your dose post-switch, and to do so was to the result of fallacious thinking. Why mess with the dose at all since you are guaranteed to live forever in indifference if you stay at the switch dose? I guess you decreased your dose for the same reason that everyone does, to escape the nasty side effects.
hmmm. I'm just going to respond as though you were wondering why I went down after I reached indifference.
I have decreased my dose several times and for several reasons. Immediately after indifference it was related to both the side effects and my fear of being on this medication at such high doses for such a long period of time.

There are no guarantees about anything.
I am likely to remain indifferent if I take enough medication to treat my disease. This does not mean that I need to stay at the level at which I found relief. This approach to medication is not just something used with baclofen. Common procedure with many antidepressants would include titrating up to a point where the effects are noticeable, and then going down again to find a place where the effectiveness remains, but with the least amount of medication. Again: Up to effectiveness. Down to maintenance. Not uncommon.

The side effects go away.

I (and others) have read quite a bit about the safety of high dose baclofen in scientific research. (Not simply anecdotal evidence.) I am comfortable now taking what I need to take in order to be healthy and content. For as long as I need or want to take it.

The last assumption/assertion, is not true or correct, either. I wanted to take adderall for ADD. I went down this last time because baclofen reduces the effects of amphetamines. (Remember, the first report, the one written about in the New York Times almost a decade ago, was about someone being unable to get high from cocaine.)

All that said, I am not suggesting that baclofen will be the panacea for everyone else that it has been for me. Or that one need to take lots and lots of it for it to be effective in helping to reduce craving/anxiety or reducing the amount of harmful drinking episodes. That assertion is not my own. It's in the science and research and anecdotal evidence repeatedly.

I am suggesting that if one takes enough of it, for long enough, one will stop drinking against one's will.

Peace out. Literally.
Very sincerely,
Ne

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Progress thread for ne

spacebebe01;1285703 wrote: Ne, congrats on the buying your very own home, what does it feel like to be all grown up

We cross posted, Space.
So far, so good! Most of the time... :H