Progress thread for ne

[neophyte]

Ne,

I had the same problem check out the "we're moving" forum, I posted about the same problem and I got sent an email to restore my old account.

[Ne1]

After 75 Years of Alcoholics Anonymous, It’s Time to Admit We Have a Problem

Thanks, Neo. I'll check my email again to see if there's a response. Maybe it went to a different folder?

Here's another article I found this morning that directly relates to the one I previously posted. It really is time that we stop posting (and pretending) that things like 12 step programs are effective simply because we don't want to discourage people. What can possibly be more discouraging than suggesting something that we know doesn't work???

By 2000, 90 percent of American addiction treatment programs employed the 12-step approach.

In any other area of medicine, if your doctor told you that the cure for your disease involved surrendering to a “higher power,” praying to have your “defects of character” lifted, and accepting your “powerlessness,” as outlined in the original 12 steps, you’d probably seek a second opinion. But, even today, if you balk at these elements of the 12-step gospel, you’ll often get accused of being “in denial.” And if you should succeed in quitting drinking without 12-step support, you might get dismissed as a “dry drunk.”

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/books-and-culture/75-years-alcoholics-anonymous-time-admit-problem-74268/

If you haven't read the books she mentions in the article, I can highly recommend all of them except Her Best Kept Secret, and that simply because I haven't read it yet. Clean: Overcoming Addiction and Ending America's Greatest Tragedy is particularly insightful.

Hope it's a good day!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Whew. I'm back as me now. Very prompt response as soon as I sent the email to the right place.

[Lostinspace]

It's disturbing to me as well, just how much AA is forced on people. There is a small percentage of people who really benefit from the 12 step approach, but there have been a number of studies that show that not only is AA ineffective for most people, but it actually increases the likelihood that people will continue to binge drink over the long haul. It makes sense because when you repeatedly tell someone that they have no control over themselves, and that having even a single drink will propel them into a full-blown relapse, the message sinks in. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'm fortunate in that where I live, mandatory AA attendance is not allowed (although they can mandate you to attend a 12 step based inpatient program). I already had plenty of AA indoctrination in the past, but following my DWI, I just had to attend outpatient counseling. This turned out to be equally worthless for me, although to be honest, I had kind of given up and wasn't trying to get sober at that point in my life, so maybe I just didn't give it a fair shot.

But yeah, AA has way too much of a stranglehold on treatment in this country. Even my nonalcoholic friends have expressed concern over the fact that I don't go to meetings. That's how much it has permeated our culture's consciousness as being the one and only true treatment. It's really frustrating because, at least in my case, I feel that it made things worse for me rather than better, for many reasons that I won't delve into (I could write a book on it!). I would never tell someone who's benefiting from meetings what my true opinion is - I won't fix what's not broken. But at the same time, I would never recommend it to someone who's not currently attending, either.

[_serenity_]

I loved that article, and the comment section was actually quite uplifting! Usually, reading comments on those kinds of articles makes me stabby.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

I have a love/hate relationship with AA. I love being in a room of people like me. No one else gets it like we do. But like you, Lost, I think it was really harmful in the long run. The experience taught me a lot of things I had to unlearn in order to get really healthy and comfortable with sobriety. It is definitely hard to navigate when there is so much illness in one room.

Serenity, stabby is the word of the day. Thanks for that. I really like Maia Szalavitz, not least because her name is really cool. She writes really well articulated, researched and thoughtful articles. Not whiney, not belligerent, just informative. I would love to meet her in person so I could ask how the hell she does it without getting stabby.

Good day to you all!

[spiritwolf333]

Hi Ne -glad to see you back posting.

I had a question for you regarding Gabapentin. You had posted on another thread -not so long ago, that if you had it to do over again, you would have started with Gabapentin instead of Baclofen. If this is still your thought, would you please tell us what research led you to believe that Gabapentin may have been a better alternative?

Thank you - (I imagine your answer might be very beneficial to newcomers to this site.)
SW

[Ne/Neva Eva]

The search engine for this forum is definitely better than it was on the old format. That said, I couldn't find the exact post you were talking about, Spirit.

I do remember saying that! I would be surprised if it was recent. But who knows?

It looked for a while that gabapentin may be an adjunct or an alternative to baclofen. Three things happened to change my understanding and therefore my mind about it.

The first is that I've never seen anyone, not one person, get sober using it. The few people I knew well, and those that stop by, either kept drinking alcoholically or just never came back. In the meantime, I was sober and stayed that way.

The second thing is that I came to understand that gabapentin may have a positive effect when someone is trying to abstain, and may even help once we're sober (with baclofen or without). But again, I only know of one person who takes it regularly enough to account for her ability to abstain. And that, just from alcohol. After she used HDB and stopped drinking.

Finally, I took 600mg one day and it made me very uncomfortable, and sleepy, and then I slept for 8 hours straight in the middle of the day. I decided to read a bit more about it and the side effects and risks are very similar to other antidepressants (and baclofen) and I didn't see any reason to continue the experiment.

Also, there is the fact that baclofen is the only medication that does what it does. Gabapentin is not, in fact, a substitute. The research I've read (and posted on your other threads) makes that exceedingly clear.

But (as I've also pointed out on the other threads--all of them) I think it might be helpful for people. Ya' know?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Here's a slightly different answer to a slightly different question:

Why would I have opted to take something else first, before trying baclofen?

To see if it worked, of course. I had a very difficult time titrating up on baclofen because I was inconsistent, in a rush, and very, very scared. For a long time, even after indifference, I wasn't sure it was going to work long term. I mean, who can imagine going from daily drunkenness to contented sobriety in four months? I've had plenty of false starts in my life.

And baclofen isn't something that can be stopped abruptly. But neither is gabapentin, nor most of the other medications we mention around here. It took me a long time to accept that. I still loathe the idea that I have to take pills every single day for me to be normal. But such is my life! The alternative is far worse. And I see relapses as the boogeyman around the corner. No thanks.

I've taken gabapentin in different doses since then, but not regularly enough to comment on the other threads about it. What about you? I read that you're taking it. Maybe you could share your experience on one of the other threads you have about alternative (to baclofen) meds?

[spiritwolf333]

Hi Ne -thanks for the response. Your response truly can help others, including myself, better navigate the medication puzzle.

I guess for me, I have not been one of the lucky ones where a pill (or several per day) was the total answer to alcoholism. I have to continuously add other treatments to continue my abstinence -support groups, counseling, exercise, nutrition, etc.

With Gabapentin, I have found a much more stable calming effect than with the baclofen. I am too early in to the Gabapentin to judge whether or not it has the same anti-craving effects that baclofen did. And of course. time will soon tell -I am sure. The great thing right now with Gabapentin is that I take 900mg first thing in the am and 600mg in the pm -and that is it. No side effects. Perhaps before too much longer, I will try the Gabapentin Enacarbil -extended release. But first, I need to make sure that Gabapentin has the same anti-craving attributes as Baclofen. I have been on clonidine for years for HBP so I don't know how much this might also be helping in combination with the Gabapentin. My medical doctor says that we will stay this course until changes become necessary.

And Ne, I too would have tried Gabapentin before Baclofen had I known then what I know now.

Cheers

[spiritwolf333]

Ne -titration and side effects of baclofen are exactly why science is continually looking for better solutions than Baclofen. Baclofen can be a solution for a few -you and I both know this. Most early stage alcoholics and alcoholics that are not in enough pain are willing and/or able to live through the pain of Baclofen.


[QUOTE=Ne/Neva Eva;1570801]Here's a slightly different answer to a slightly different question:

Why would I have opted to take something else first, before trying baclofen?

To see if it worked, of course. I had a very difficult time titrating up on baclofen because I was inconsistent, in a rush, and very, very scared. For a long time, even after indifference, I wasn't sure it was going to work long term. I mean, who can imagine going from daily drunkenness to contented sobriety in four months? I've had plenty of false starts in my life.

QUOTE]

[Blownaway]

I want to inject my.02 cents on gabapentin here. Not going to go into the whole story, but I was on 2800mg and very low dose bac for many years due to a medical condition. Prior to that, I was a drinker, but not alcoholically. I drank on weekends only, and only if partying. I would have never said I had a problem with Al. After x number of years on the neurontin, back then no generic, the pain of my condition and the side effects of the meds forced me to choose a surgical resolution to my problem. The neurosurgeon had me discontinue all use of meds. the day of surgery. Yes, I did have many problems because of that - the biggest one being big lapses in my memory. Anyway, I NEVER drank, was even disgusted by the thought of alcohol while on the meds. Slowly after that I became a full blown "functional' alkie - it was a very slow process. So, I know that for me, gabapentin did work. I never put 2 + 2 together until 4yrs. ago when I checked into a treated called prometrium (or something like that). That treatment involves injecting high doses of gabapentin into you for a couple days and other things. I have forgotten now what all it involved. It cost around 10,000.00 and involved having to have someone take you home from the treatments. I was not about to do that, as I have been a secret drunk, and I was not going to tell anyone. That night, I realized that it was the gabapentin that stopped me from drinking all those years. And that same night, I discovered this place. I did stop drinking with the topa, tapes, supps, etc., but eventually slowly started back. I tried the HDB both from India and liquid from loop. But I could not bear the side effects - geez, my legs were pure marshmallows at 170 and I could not walk.

I have decided to seek medical help for this problem. I have not been drinking for awhile, maybe a month, but it is too hard alone. I know I am going to break. So, I am planning on trying the gabapentin to see if it will work again. Of course, I have no idea what the dose was before that actually took away the al desire. I also know that I am one who needs counseling.

I will let you know how it goes!

B.

[Lostinspace]

I just want to offer a counterpoint to what's been said, because I feel like in this discussion of how we're all different, and how no one pill will work for everyone, we're giving people the message that baclofen is universally difficult to tolerate. I tried gabapentin in the past. Not only did it do nothing for my cravings, I suffered terrible side effects that caused me to stop taking it. While it's true that I have yet to reach indifference with baclofen, it has already helped me greatly with no side effects to speak of. And I hope to keep pushing forward towards indifference. I just want to put that out there because I would really hate to see someone try gabapentin, not be able to tolerate it, then give up because they think that baclofen is the harsher medicine that will only cause them more pain. That's not true. There's no one pill that will work the same for everyone, nor will it cause the same side effects for everyone. I have to believe that there are other people out there like me who couldn't bear to take gabapentin, but do just fine with bac.

I'm happy to hear the gabapentin worked for you in the past, Blownaway. I wish you the best as you move forward.

[spiritwolf333]

I want to inject my.02 cents on gabapentin here. Not going to go into the whole story, but I was on 2800mg and very low dose bac for many years due to a medical condition. Prior to that, I was a drinker, but not alcoholically. I drank on weekends only, and only if partying. I would have never said I had a problem with Al. After x number of years on the neurontin, back then no generic, the pain of my condition and the side effects of the meds forced me to choose a surgical resolution to my problem. The neurosurgeon had me discontinue all use of meds. the day of surgery. Yes, I did have many problems because of that - the biggest one being big lapses in my memory. Anyway, I NEVER drank, was even disgusted by the thought of alcohol while on the meds. Slowly after that I became a full blown "functional' alkie - it was a very slow process. So, I know that for me, gabapentin did work. I never put 2 + 2 together until 4yrs. ago when I checked into a treated called prometrium (or something like that). That treatment involves injecting high doses of gabapentin into you for a couple days and other things. I have forgotten now what all it involved. It cost around 10,000.00 and involved having to have someone take you home from the treatments. I was not about to do that, as I have been a secret drunk, and I was not going to tell anyone. That night, I realized that it was the gabapentin that stopped me from drinking all those years. And that same night, I discovered this place. I did stop drinking with the topa, tapes, supps, etc., but eventually slowly started back. I tried the HDB both from India and liquid from loop. But I could not bear the side effects - geez, my legs were pure marshmallows at 170 and I could not walk.

I have decided to seek medical help for this problem. I have not been drinking for awhile, maybe a month, but it is too hard alone. I know I am going to break. So, I am planning on trying the gabapentin to see if it will work again. Of course, I have no idea what the dose was before that actually took away the al desire. I also know that I am one who needs counseling.

I will let you know how it goes!

B.

Hi BlownAway -Thank you for making your experience known in this post. I find it incredibly important that we try and let folks know that are multiple medications now available for alcoholism -and even more in the pipe line. What works for one person may not work for another. And then you might have a combination that works. Much new research is being performed using Gabapentin and Baclofen (and other medications). This just was not the case ten years ago and I am extremely excited -especially for the generations that are following us.

Baclofen has been a great starting point for medications to offer 'real solutions' to alcoholism. It so happens that Dr. Ameisen started with Baclofen and not Gabapentin -both of which had been undergoing research for years prior to Dr. Ameisen personally trying Baclofen. I will always be thankful to Dr. Ameisen for going public with his story -always.

[spiritwolf333]

I just want to offer a counterpoint to what's been said, because I feel like in this discussion of how we're all different, and how no one pill will work for everyone, we're giving people the message that baclofen is universally difficult to tolerate.

Great point Lost -no one pill works for everyone. And to your point about baclofen being universally difficult 'to tolerate' - I don't think you will find one person on this forum (well maybe one or two) or anywhere else who did experience difficulties taking Baclofen, especially at high doses. So yes, for the majority, baclofen is very difficult to tolerate and it is very difficult to find a dosage that marks a point of freedom to choose to drink or not drink.

And Lost, I would really hate to see someone try Baclofen (month after month), suffer the side effects thereof, and then decide that Baclofen or any other medication was not for them. What a shame this would be, especially in light of all the new medications coming on board.

I do hope that at some point in your Baclofen journey, that you find a point that you can choose to drink or not drink. Whatever you do, do NOT give up. You will be amazed once you reach that point -it just takes time and perseverance.