Progress thread for ne

[dundrinkn]

Just read TK's post. Somehow I missed it. My p Doc seems to think it was an SE of baclofen, which is why I am on the Gaba. It diminishes to such an extent at lower doses (even with the the Gaba) that I am nearly certain it is related. I don't have issues from sciatica -- see a chiro all the time so also certain of this. Thought it could be MS or something, but that was ruled out as well. Besides, it isn't just one leg -- it's both. And there is a skin pain/discomfort that only comes on when I'm up above 100mg. That doesn't happen at all at lower doses. I could come off of baclofen to prove it to myself, and someday I might. But not now. Plus which, I think Stuck has said his has all but disappeared once off Baclofen and came back wicked bad when he tried another time to go up and that was only at 30mg.

[terryk]

Yeah, I'm sure that it's baclofen related, but my main point was that it's probably not neuropathy (which is permanent nerve damage), but rather neuralgia which is nerve pain that only lasts as long as you take the baclofen - not that that helps you feel any better about the pain. -tk

[Ne/Neva Eva]

I tried to work on the forum yesterday. It's rather daunting. Stay tuned, though. I'm working on it. Might take me 17 years, but I'm gonna do it, dammit.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Morning, MWOers.

Tough day and night in Ne-land yesterday. Saw my pdoc in the morning. We have 2-hour long appointments! It's pretty amazing what you can get into when you meet someone for that long. Amazing and rather uncomfortable. The reason for the extended appointments is because I'm freaking out about school (6 days!) and I feel like I want something magical to happen before I have to dig in and start studying.

Well, I don't know about magical, but we definitely got into some stuff yesterday. It started with all the stuff that's been going on with Ed. Surprisingly, at one point she used the word abusive. (Honestly, the whole thing was pretty overwhelming, and I haven't really decompressed from it yet. That's why I'm writing about it I suppose.)

No surprise, she said, that I drank 15 beers on Sunday, given the amount of (and here it is) shame I was experiencing. Fucking shame, man. A 5 letter word that's worse than any other in the language.

Turns out that just because I deny shame, doesn't mean I'm not experiencing it, just means I'm in denial that I am carrying around a bunch of shame.

Who knew? Not me.

Tell you about the rest of the day later.

Hope it's a good one. For all of us.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

My therapist explained that guilt is feeling bad about something you've done wrong. Shame is feeling as though there is something wrong with you.

I don't know about the rest of you, but even when I was healthy, I felt like there was something wrong with me. I wonder if that ever goes away.

She says it does. That it can. That it's about facing it and seeing it and sitting with it, to understand that it's just a made-up concept. Something I invented, that isn't true. It's not "fact" and therefore not valid. Can I un-choose it? If so, why do I choose it? What's my attachment to feeling as though there is something wrong with me?

[dundrinkn]

Not much energy today, but have read your posts and just wanted to say hang in there. Sounds like therapy yesterday was rough. I couldn't do two hours of therapy. Blah. I just am not that interested in me.

I see people say it all the time "I'm damaged". That's what came to mind when you brought up the whole "there's something wrong with me". I like the way she broke those two things apart -- doing something wrong and guilt/something wrong with you and shame. I have to think more about it, but it rings true. I suppose if we don't feel like something's wrong with us then no one else can shame us.

Anyway... hugs. Sounds like you're going through it.

[Lostinspace]

Hey Ne. I’m sorry you had a rough session with the pdoc. Shame truly is a curse word. It’s so hard to move past, especially (for me) when you fully believe that you’re less than and can’t honestly see things any other way. I’m not sure there’s ever really any attachment to feeling like there’s something wrong with us, it’s just a negative pattern of thinking that we fall into that’s incredibly difficult to get out of because it means completely redefining our realities, and our relationship with the world. I think there might also be a fear in letting go of shame because we’re scared that if we view ourselves better, we might just end up proving that we were right the first time. And that would be embarrassing (for ever feeling good about ourselves) on top of going back to feeling shame. I’m sorry I’m not much help here at all, but I hope you can start to switch your focus to all the things that are right about you and take pride in those things - because there are a lot! Hang in there :hug:

[Ne/Neva Eva]

I think there might also be a fear in letting go of shame because we’re scared that if we view ourselves better, we might just end up proving that we were right the first time.

Yes, Lis. Exactly that. If I don't actually succeed (with whatever) and I'm not damaged, then I'm a failure. Know what I mean?

I suppose if we don't feel like something's wrong with us then no one else can shame us.

Exactly her point, I think. Except that shame is a personal construct. We make shame up. So it's not that other people make us experience shame, it's that we do it to ourselves. I think? I'll have to ask her about that...

I love doing therapy with her. It hurts, but it's...true. Honest. You know what I mean?

I have a major roadblock that keeps me from finishing things. I mean anything. Projects, school, absolutely everything. I didn't graduate from high school on time. I've come very close to finishing school before. (6 years in college will do that.) Actually, that's not exactly true, since most of my credits won't transfer, 'cause I failed most of my classes or was majoring in something completely random (Latin American Women's History. HA! hahahaha.) Such a waste. Because I was wasted. Or just being silly.

I just turned 46. I have had some remarkable accomplishments in my life. I have done some really cool things. I am...really smart. And I love to write. People often give me good feedback. I want to be able to reach out to the people who want to be friends with me. I'm roadblocked from those things, too.

Something's got to give, and it's not just the booze. In fact, I feel like whatever this thing is greatly contributes to my anxiety and therefore to my drinking. My fundamental dysfunction isn't booze, that's just a symptom of my anxiety. Or whatever you want to call it. It's bigger than just "anxiousness", you know? What do you call anxiety that encompasses EVERYTHING?

Thanks so much for your thoughts. Really appreciate it.

Good day!

[nicnak68]

Ashamed and guilty,felt those all my life.
Now I realise most of the things I felt ashamed and guilty about were nothing to do with me,but about the way my mother brought me up

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Ashamed and guilty,felt those all my life.
Now I realise most of the things I felt ashamed and guilty about were nothing to do with me,but about the way my mother brought me up

I'm really sorry for your childhood experiences, nicnak.

I don't know if it's guilt and shame, or something else that is making Stevo (another member) so reluctant and incredibly anxious about visiting his mother...
But I don't think that's uncommon for our tribe, ya' know?

One of the really pressing reasons I feel the need to help our people is because of the kids. Help the parents, help the children. I've met WAY too many parents in the rooms who are overwhelmed with guilt, or whose kids are permanently damaged and/or alcoholic themselves. And those are the ones trying to get help!

Hang in there, nicnac. I will tell you that when I stopped drinking against my will, EVERYTHING changed. My self-esteem improved dramatically. First of all, I beat the one thing that had kicked my ass my whole life. Second of all, I was able to finally disprove much of what I heard in 12 step meetings for 20 years. You know the ones. The ones that say we are morally, ethically and spiritually bankrupt. Obviously if I can take a little pill (or gobs of them, in my case!) and have the alcoholism go away for good, then it wasn't because I was a bad person. God, there was so much freedom in that.

The only reason I'm back in the throes of this disease again is because I stopped taking enough baclofen. And I stopped taking it when I started the most stressful part of my life in years. (stupid! stupid! stupid. Do not stop taking the pills when life is stressful. Seriously.)

Then my grandmother, essentially my best friend, and then my beloved dog, died. Several other random and extremely stressful things happened in that year, too. Then depression...

Don't do what I did! Or rather, do what I did in the beginning.

• Take enough pills to find indifference.
• Sleep! VERY IMPORTANT!
• Exercise. Lots.
• Find things to occupy your newfound free time, things that feel good and make you happy!
• Have fun! This can be hard to do. Find a way.
• Not in places where the only thing other people are doing is drinking. It's no fun, and a trigger is still a trigger...You can drink yourself right out of indifference. Just like you can eat yourself into a diabetic coma when you're taking insulin. Same same.
• BE VERY GENTLE AND KIND TO YOURSELF. All this stuff takes time and energy and you may not have those in the beginning. Pretend, or rather admit to yourself, that you are recovering from a lifelong deadly illness.

If someone is recovering from cancer do you beat them up for not exercising? What about if they don't feel like getting off the couch? Do you walk in and say, "WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU? GET UP! FEEL GOOD! SMILE FFS!"

No. You bring them chicken soup and chocolate and sit on the couch in pajamas with them watching shitty tv. So do that for yourself. And enjoy it. Dammit.

Oh, and in the meantime, jkttdp. (Just keep taking the damn pills.)

[Ne/Neva Eva]

hmmm. I just gave myself a little pep talk. I needed that SO MUCH and I had no idea. Thanks, nicnak.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

I'm also going to read this to my husband when he gets home to night. He needs to hear it, too.

And my pdoc next week.

Wow. Quite the light-bulb-moment for me.

[LostSoul33]

Hi all,
Wanted to introduce myself and see if anyone had some thoughts.
Ive attempted sobriety for the past 5 years. The most I could get was 2.5 months 2 years ago and a few weeks here and there until I went to treatment in June for 2 months. There, it was easy to stay sober, inpatient, highly medicated-- valium & barbiturates for a 25 day detox then Gabapentin, Topomax, Naltraxone and Baclofen (in different combinations). Believe it or not, as soon as I got out, I bought a bottle of wine, at that point I was on Topomax, which reduced my need to keep drinking and made everything, including food, taste like metal. But I stopped taking it within a week because the side effects were unbearable.
Needless to say, things got progressively worse.
Ive managed to stay sober this week, going to AA meetings and posting here. But being a chronic relapser, I can't help but wonder if I should start taking Baclofen to ensure I don't mess up.
I guess my question is, how can I titrate to the point of indifference if I was having great difficulty at 10mg 2/day and 20 mg at night for a couple of weeks?
I want to use all the methods I can to stay on track.
Thanks in advance.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Hi Lost Soul.

I can't answer whether or not you should take baclofen. But I can tell you that that's why I started taking baclofen. 3 rehabs, years in and out of the rooms, different meds...

It took me 4 tries with baclofen, though, because I experienced a lot of side effects. I could have made it easier on myself if I had abstained from alcohol (not possible at the time) and been consistent with my doses. I still have trouble with that, even now, 4+ years later.

Anyway, what problems did you have at 40mg? Did you start at 40mg or did you titrate up? Obviously you were in rehab, so abstinent. Other meds, maybe? Though that's a stretch...(By the way, what state was the rehab in? I'm always curious about the ones that use ALL the meds.)

Not one of us can say whether or not you would experience side effects now, or whether or not they will be different. Lostinspace hasn't experienced any. I still experience them from time to time. (I'm titrating up to my switch dose for the second time, and they are MUCH less of an issue now. In fact, they barely bother me.)

For the record, I had a much harder time below 90mg and above 260mg.

I, personally, would give it a shot. Why not? What is there to lose? If you can't tolerate it, you can't tolerate it. If you can, then it's one more tool in your arsenal. I try to use all the tools I'm able to, don't you? (I should be clear, though, that I was pretty anti-medicine and very scared of ordering over the internet when I started. But I was DESPERATE.) Now that I've debunked a lot of what I learned in the rooms about not using "crutches". Medicine isn't a crutch, it's a tool. Diabetics need insulin. Same thing.

If you're worried about addiction potential, there isn't one study, not one, that suggests there is addiction potential or even lists it as a medication with a high potential for abuse. If there is, it'd be news to me, and I'm pretty sure I see all the stuff related to baclofen at some point or another. Most of the studies say just the opposite, too. No addiction potential and very low abuse potential. (There have been reports of hypermania and euphoria, but those are rare.)

All that said, it's a medication and needs to be treated with respect. If you take it, commit to it. Don't take it on some days and not on others. Don't take it for 3 months and then stop it suddenly. Well, I mean, you can. But it's a great way to mess yourself up. So just don't. Sorry for being bossy about it.

Either way, know that I wish for you the best. Hang in there and get this beast of a disease gone for good. We all deserve that. :hug:

[Ne/Neva Eva]

By the way, sorry to overlook some of the most important things you wrote:

Congratulations on the complete abstinence! Before baclofen, I don't think I'd had more than 2 weeks abstinent outside of 30-day rehab.

The rest of this is a story about me. Sorry if that irks. I am NOT trying to make it all about me, and I am damn proud of you that you have been clean and sober this week. Seriously.

Actually, after one 30-day stint it was deemed (by me and my therapist) too risky to let me just walk out so they admitted me to a second rehab. Unfortunately, only place I could get in was running a test program so it included prisoners who were there to shorten their prison sentences mixed in with the general population. Women were absolutely not allowed to fraternize with the men at all, and it was made very clear that some of the men were there for violence against women, and regardless, any man was a threat.

I FREAKED out, but didn't say anything, when I found out that a woman in my dorm was buying crack through the back privacy fence. I kid you not. She was there, like me, under her own volition. But she decided to leave AMA two days after I heard about the crack use. My roommate was a heroin addict and prostitute. I liked her, and respected her for real, but I didn't have one single thing in common with her. She didn't drink. (Addiction is addiction, in my opinion. But living on the street is not my experience and living in the suburbs was not her experience.) The day after the crack thing, a man in group shared about pistol whipping someone in an alley. He was laughing about it. So were most of the guys in the room.

I'm not passing judgment y'all. I've met inmates in the rooms, after they've served time. We all have. I've even met people who have done terrible things but didn't get caught. I can assure you it was VERY different than that. But there was NOTHING I could relate to in that place, it was damned uncomfortable and I called my husband to come get me out ASAP after the pistol-whipping story.

I don't know if I've ever told that story publicly. I don't even know if I told Ed how scary it was. It embarrasses me how "bad" I was. I told the therapist who got me into the place so he didn't do it to any other suburbanites who'd never used anything more than cocaine. Twice. At parties in college.

It is truly messed up that it embarrasses me how bad I was, even now, when the truth is that the rehab was unbelievably atrocious and no place for human beings. I've never experienced such disrespect from professionals in my life. There were therapists who were still in college! Still in COLLEGE, ffs. But that's another story. (Se______, you could probably relate. That brings me comfort. :hug: Will delete if that makes you uncomfortable.)

Anyway, what was my point? Oh, yes. I think I was in there for about 10 days, stayed sober for 10 or so days afterward, so a total of 53 days, including detox of 3 days before inpatient rehab, is the longest I've ever been sober in my adult life. So I feel ya'.