Progress thread for ne

[Otter]

Hi Ne and good evening -
Yes Ne, it is against the law to reveal a person's name with the intent to cause them harm. and especially without said person's permission. I did not "tell" you anything -I simply asked you to ask one of your friends.
Ne, why would you even be interested in sharing an opinion that it is not against the law to reveal a person's identity. This being the case, according to you, I assume that it is ok for me or others to start sharing your full name and information on the site -right? Is this right Ne/Never/Ever?

In fact, it is against the law even if you do not intend to cause them harm. I sent you that text message as a matter of record and in hope for your help. You had stated in one of your prior posts that I "deserved this treatment/harassmentt". As you may recall, you asked that the person who is posting information on your tag lines remove said information/words and they quickly did as you asked (tags that involved you and me). I sent you the text in hopes that you would again ask the person making such horrific tags to remove them. Instead, all that I read is what you wrote above. You, simply by your failure to ask your friend to remove tags lines related directly to me, are simply a part of their ongoing criminal and illegal activities.

So Ne/Never/Ever -let us set the record straight:
(1) You do care who is posting what as long it does not bring up your personal identity?
(2) You are ok if someone reveals your personal identity? (they have the legal right to do so?)
(3) You believe and advertise to the forum that it is ok to reveal a person's identity -even if you know or have seen it before hand and they do not give permission to post said info?

Ne: You have BacMan backing you up all the way. He/She is causing harm, not only to me, but to others as well. He/She works with you on your new forum and knows very well that his/her actions and your actions are causing harm to this forum and web site. I do now ask you to please you to call your dog off and help each of us to move on to help others to free themselves. It makes no sense whatsoever for you two to be on this forum when you have your own.

Gee, SF, I thought that in the US you had a Bill of Rights which protected everyone's right to free speech? I think it is the First Amendment to your constitution. Oh yes, it is. It says: "Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech,"

So, how is it illegal?

I think you might be thinking of the laws of defamation. It's not "illegal" to call someone a name or expose their name on an internet forum. It might be "actionable" as a tort or civil wrong but the problem with that is it's not defamatory to say something about someone if it is "TRUE". Hahahahaha.

So, what is it that anyone here has said that isn't true? None of it as far as I can see. I've been very careful about what I have said about you, telling everyone about how you targetted me and invaded my privacy under false pretenses and then carried on to disturb and destroy the safe haven that I and others cursed with this illness have found so valuable.

As far as nasty names are concerned, well, you know, the problem is that you are going to have a hard time showing to anyone that you were caused any "damage" by the comments. Remember that film with Anthony Hopkins, QB VII., in which he sued someone for making anti-semitic remarks about him and he won but only got like a buck fifty in damages.

C'mon SF, grow up. Pleeeez

[lex]

So please, while I appreciate your opinions about this, if you want to make REAL CHANGE here on MWO, you can participate by being positive in the meds threads. By offering us real support, instead of judgment, when we MUST correct his lies and misinformation.

Thank you for your time. And please join us at http://www.theendofmyaddiction.org/ if and when you have time to participate in both places. You may find it refreshing to see the very same people you are blaming here, for ruining MWO, working very hard to make sure that we don't create the same mistakes that have been made here and led to this unhelpful, unsupportive chaos.

NE- I thought I was being positive, and I certainly do not mean to blame anyone for ruining MWO. lex

[lex]

PS- There have been a couple of times when I have voiced my opinion that if a person continues to over-drink "against their will" or better judgment, even when they have been taking baclofen for over a year, that they would be better off trying as hard as they possibly can to become abstinent (with or without baclofen) at least for a good while, before they even attempt to drink moderately again.

I guess this reflects a "judgment". It is my personal belief that it is ok to occasionally offer a "judgment" like this on a forum like this. After all, we are trying to support each other's efforts to modify our drinking behavior through either moderation or abstinence. So if we say nothing in the face of what appears to us to be irrational drinking behavior engaged in by a fellow poster, aren't we being less than helpful?

I suppose you could view the ideal forum as being one in which no one ever pushed back in the face of seemingly irrational behavior, but instead said nothing or perhaps even offered unconditional support. That is not a forum that I personally would be comfortable with. To me, that seems to amount to mere "enabling" as I understand that concept. Seriously, how is offering unconditional support different than "enabling"? Maybe it is, but if so you'll have to help me see how it is.

Perhaps there is room for differing opinions on these matters. In any event, I wish all forum posters happiness.

[Otter]

Enabling is an AA term. It has no place in medicine. If someone is clinically, physically ill and needs to consume a substance because it replaces something in their system which is missing, then calling someone who gives them that substance a ridiculing, contemptuous name is entirely wrongheaded and misconceived.

The fact is that this is an illness which has been around throughout human history and if you take the period of time during which medical treatments have been put forward for addiction, say the last 50-60 years, and the past 10 years for baclofen, you are, relatively speaking, talking about the equivalent of a hundredth of a second out of a year.

What we have here is still the beginning of the beginning. Ameisen has come up with some insights into the cause of alcoholism and addiction, based on some solid science and it happens to work. What we have is both a need to develop this further with better and more research of the drug itself, and also encouragement and development of adjunct therapies and treatments. What we don't need is big wet blankets and, frankly, garbage thinking making the whole picture unclear again.

Certainly, the present state of baclofen treatment is not perfect. Anyone with a serious alcohol problem who wants to detox is told that this should be done in hospital. There they will give you heavy vitamin injections and librium. But, if you want to take advantage of what is now being seen to be a successful treatment of even serious alcoholism, most hospitals will turn you away "BECAUSE" you are taking baclofen. You will be mocked by doctors and nurses and even physically escorted out of the hospital in some places.

So, what one poster here is doing is importing that kind of unhelpful attitude and atmosphere onto and into this forum where many of us have been fighting the outside world to get recognition and help which would/could make this treatment more successful. It is an anxiety disorder and treatment and this approach creates anxiety. It is deplorable that this guy continues to do this and I am so very happy that there is now, for the first time a real hope that this kind of support forum will now be ablel to flourish at the new www.theendofmyaddiction.com

Halleluah!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

NE- I thought I was being positive, and I certainly do not mean to blame anyone for ruining MWO. lex

Thanks, lex. Though I know you will admit that it has not always been that way. Still, I understand what you were suggesting. What I was pointing out is that the label of intolerance that is often leveled at the people in the meds threads is not in fact true. It's a myth perpetuated by Spiritfree because we openly refute the misinformation, lies or malicious posts he makes.

PS- There have been a couple of times when I have voiced my opinion that if a person continues to over-drink "against their will" or better judgment, even when they have been taking baclofen for over a year, that they would be better off trying as hard as they possibly can to become abstinent (with or without baclofen) at least for a good while, before they even attempt to drink moderately again.

...
I guess this reflects a "judgment".

...
Perhaps there is room for differing opinions on these matters. In any event, I wish all forum posters happiness.

It is, in fact, judgmental to accuse someone of being less than responsible for their own choices when it comes to their own treatments. And one of the things about baclofen, like naltrexone using The Sinclair Method, is that it can take a very long time. During that time the person taking the medication is often still drinking. And guess what? It has worked for many of us to do it exactly that way. So yes, your judgment is noted, and not particularly relevant for people who choose this way of treating their addictions. Who are you to say what they should do? Especially since there are so many of us, who have been around for a long time, (years) who have seen this process work over and over and over again.

That said, there should be room for people to share that they tried medication(s) and it didn't work for them and that they finally committed to absolute abstinence that may or may not include a 12-step program, therapy, nutrition, meditation, astrology or whatever the hell worked for them. Again, without judgment from those of us who absolutely believe in medications as a primary treatment for this physical disease.

What I do not see, or don't see with any regularity, are the people passing judgment about other, more traditional choices. There has always been, and will always be, a bit of divisiveness between those who attempt to moderate their drinking and those who insist that abstinence is the only way to freedom. (The medical research backs up that the majority of people with Alcohol Use Disorders can, in fact, drink normally again. It depends on the person and the level of disease. But that is beside the point for the moment.)

For the people who try to maintain abstinence without medications, with peer support from here, or 12-steps or some other traditional method, the judgment simply doesn't exist. (Now if the person continuously relapses, there's plenty of judgment, even though that is the very definition of this disease.)

The short version? Yes, it is judgmental and unwelcome to make a judgment about the ways in which someone chooses to treat their addiction. The very last thing I would want to create, or participate in, is a place where people who drink against their will aren't welcome.

It may take someone years to get contentedly sober, much less completely abstinent. Why should that mean that they can't participate? Hell, they may want to participate even if they are not yet ready to get sober. And maybe someday, they will find something or someone who says something that helps them see that as a worthy and achievable goal. Who am I to say? Or any of us?

Thanks for the posts, lex. Much appreciated.
:hug:

[aihfl]

Certainly, the present state of baclofen treatment is not perfect. Anyone with a serious alcohol problem who wants to detox is told that this should be done in hospital. There they will give you heavy vitamin injections and librium. But, if you want to take advantage of what is now being seen to be a successful treatment of even serious alcoholism, most hospitals will turn you away "BECAUSE" you are taking baclofen. You will be mocked by doctors and nurses and even physically escorted out of the hospital in some places.

This is just outlandish. I was a regular repeat customer in hospital emergency rooms (about nine times, I think; you know you're in a bad way when you can't even remember) at several different hospitals and this NEVER happened to me. It would be a major lawsuit if this ever did happen.

It is deplorable that this guy continues to do this and I am so very happy that there is now, for the first time a real hope that this kind of support forum will now be ablel to flourish at the new www.theendofmyaddiction.com

As I've said elsewhere, please go there and stay there if you feel that to be the case. I see all sides as equally culpable in creating all this drama.

[Otter]

This is just outlandish. I was a regular repeat customer in hospital emergency rooms (about nine times, I think; you know you're in a bad way when you can't even remember) at several different hospitals and this NEVER happened to me.



As I've said elsewhere, please go there and stay there if you feel that to be the case. I see all sides as equally culpable in creating all this drama.

It's not outlandish. My wife went to the Royal Alexandria in Paisley, Scotland, at the invitation of Mathis Heydtmann Ph.D. to be treated with baclofen. She was admitted in A and E and given a vitamin drip. She was put on a ward with other baclofen users but the ward doctor refused to administer baclofen "it's my ward" It took a while for Dr. Heydtmann to arrive and prescribe baclofen. The nurses refused to give it, having two doctors giving differing instructions so my wife went home. When her condition deteriorated I took her back to the same hospital and the emergency doctor refused to admit her, phoned me and told me to come pick her up. I then had to administer a detox dose of baclofen at home with help over the phone, did not have adequate help or support and the result was a personal catastrophe for my wife and myself. I called an ambulance and my wife was taken to another hospital where she was not only refused treatment but the police were called to take her into custody.

That is typical of treatment of anyone who would dare to tell a doctor in any UK hospital that "they" should consider treating with baclofen It is also true of virtually every other hosptial in the world.

[Otter]

PS. I have no problem in your seeing me as "equally culpable". I gladly and openly accept and admit my involvement in what you call the "drama".

As I have no idea what your previous name was I have no idea what your involvement has been on this particular chat board but under your present name, you haven't said anything which would make me want to stay here and have a dialogue with you. I would like to go to the other forum and stay there but I come here deliberately to raise awareness of the other forum, encourage others to join, tell jokes, and discuss the one topic which has become by far the most significant thing now being discussed here, my dogs.

[Otter]

This is just outlandish. I was a regular repeat customer in hospital emergency rooms (about nine times, I think; you know you're in a bad way when you can't even remember) at several different hospitals and this NEVER happened to me. It would be a major lawsuit if this ever did happen.



As I've said elsewhere, please go there and stay there if you feel that to be the case. I see all sides as equally culpable in creating all this drama.

What strikes me about this post is its hostility.

I am also puzzled that you would say that something which did happen is "outlandish", based on your experience, which you must admit, was not "my" experience.

What I would like to know is whether you presented to hospital on any of those occassions as someone who was going to the hospital to be treated by a liver specialist who was treating his patients with baclofen or whether you went to the hospital after relapsing after you stopped taking baclofen, or whether you went to the hospital seeking help with baclofen withdrawal.

Why, I assume, you went to hospital nine times is that you were heavily intoxicated and needed treatment either because you were so drunk you were a danger to yourself or needed to be safely detoxed.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

... But, if you want to take advantage of what is now being seen to be a successful treatment of even serious alcoholism, most hospitals will turn you away "BECAUSE" you are taking baclofen. You will be mocked by doctors and nurses and even physically escorted out of the hospital in some places.

This is just outlandish. I was a regular repeat customer in hospital emergency rooms (about nine times, I think; you know you're in a bad way when you can't even remember) at several different hospitals and this NEVER happened to me. It would be a major lawsuit if this ever did happen.

Hey, alky. This actually happened to two friends of mine here in eastern Virginia. One friend was turned away in two different hospitals, specifically because she was taking baclofen. She then tried the Virginia Beach Psychiatric Hospital, and they said that because baclofen "detox" was not covered by her insurance she could not be admitted. She did not admit to being actively suicidal, unfortunately, because then they would have HAD to admit her. Instead, she took her life 6 weeks later with her father's gun to her head.

I also had the unique experience of going with her to two different psychiatrists that her parents insisted she see, to support her. In both cases, the psychiatrists said they would not treat her as long as she was taking baclofen. (Trust me when I tell you it was very bizarre to be involved in that way. I just didn't know how else to help her, and was terrified for her...And she asked, so I went.)

The other friend was turned away in an ER. They admitted him, and he was experiencing severe AL withdrawals, but when they found out he was taking baclofen the doctor discharged him without treatment. He had to go to a different ER, lie about the baclofen (by omitting it from his intake report) and then was able to get treatment for severe AL withdrawal. He had experienced seizures and other major, possibly life-threatening withdrawals before, so he KNEW he had to get treatment. Imagine if he didn't know?

So it happens. Florida has a very open policy toward baclofen, actually. I've heard that from a number of people. Apparently there was a study done there years ago...But who knows why? I wish I did. Then we could repeat the procedure and get doctors on board all over the country...

[aihfl]

Alky, I hear you. And it's one of the main reasons we started a new forum. Not JUST because this place is not moderated, but because there is so much intolerance. If you spend ANY time at all looking at the new forum, reading our mission statement, our goals, our posts, you will see that the PRIMARY PURPOSE is that people be able and allowed to share their experiences, all of them, and find new sources of information, about how to END ADDICTION.
You're using lots of approaches. I get it. So am I. So are many of us. Limiting it to one *anything* is counterproductive.

Ne, I'm still on the clock so I don't have time to write much, but THANK YOU for taking the time to say this because there just seems to be so much overt hostility toward twelve step support around here. Even Dr. Ameisen himself said that the relaxation that came from a dose of baclofen enabled him to apply CBT and AA techniques to resist drinking.

[SKendall]

aihfl I once lived in the UK and gov't supported healthcare is very different. It's not a business to them like here and their (dr's) are imperious and you dare not suggest something independently and so, Otter's story is credible to me.

Well said by everyone!

It's especially great when we can have these conversations without ignorant intrusion.

Mywayout was started by RJ who didn't like the 12 step philosophy and her philosophy was embraced by newcomers at that time. We also had an AA thread for those who did practice the 12 steps. Because medicine has given us a hand in recovery a forum discussing the medicines and as Ne says, peer support for me is essential.

She was accurate in naming this site MWO because we each had an opportunity to practice our own way out. The end result is what is important. I cringe at
some of the posts here by one indiv b/c it's the last thing she would have anticipated or tolerated and this website, etc. has saved lives, allowed people to improve their relationships, educated and allowed strong friendships to be made. I personally think it's a travesty that RJ's intentions and achievements should be soiled, in my humble opinion.

It should be reassuring to have our peers and it is scaring Newcomers with statements from the unfortunate SF. I know this b/c I contacted some who left after experiencing frustration and SF's name kept popping up and he contaminated the Medication thread. The lack of moderating here
has become egregious b/c of this poster.

If anyone has any recent info on RJ, please post. Her attempts to moderate failed and after much research and sobriety came back. I think she had already sold MWO to someone else (husband). She was a great lady and I would love to know how well she is doing.

[Spiritfree]

Here is the bottom line:

If someone is struggling to stay alive and are dying as a direct result of their alcoholism, they need help immediately. The first line of immediate help is other people who have suffered in the same way that they are suffering and to receive support and information (AA as an example). Those that are dying or/and in need of immediate help do not need the help of people who have been drinking for many years and are still drinking and still trying to find medications that will someday work for them. They need real help -"NOW". Those who are struggling to stay alive relative to their alcoholism do not need nor want to hear about titration schedules, or dogs, or other such foolishness. They are trying to survive- in some way, somehow -period.

NE, they are more than welcome, as you have published, to come/go to your site and get your (and your friends) form of help. This is great -so let it be, just that. Please stop trying to stop the free flow of information and support on this site. Please ask TK and Otter to post their relevant, helpful information on your site and to stop posting on this site. After all, and as you have stated many times, you were creating your new site in an effort to avoid this site and the "trolls". Now, let us continue to see who is trolling who. You started back posting in the "General Discussion" area of the forum. Surly, they all will transfer to your new site as well -right?

So NE, bottom line, care for your new site, stop trying to interfere with those who remain on this site, and create your own environment whereby you can love/care for yourself, get sober and carry on. You do not need TK's, Serenity's, Baclofen's, Stuck's, Liz's, or anyone else's permission to be ok with yourself. Create your own new, happy, great life that you so deserve and try to do so on your newly created forum. You have done a GREAT job creating your new site -in my opinion.

If you consider this a troll post, then this is certainly your prerogative to do so. However, I would suggest to you that this is a reality post intended only to help you, me, and others to continue on and try to help others and ourselves the best way that we can individually know how to do so.

https://www.theendofmyaddiction.org

--sf--

[kronkcarr]

Florida has a very open policy toward baclofen, actually. I've heard that from a number of people. Apparently there was a study done there years ago...But who knows why? I wish I did. Then we could repeat the procedure and get doctors on board all over the country...

I did not find this to be true in FL. Yes, I found a doctor that would prescribe baclofen but not past 80 mgs. He also wanted me to be abstinent and to come off the baclofen and go on an antidepressant. I'm grateful he got me started and have sent him an update each year on the anniversary of my start.
I had to use Dr L and Lo0p to get enough baclofen until I stopped taking it. I'd also asked a doctor I knew if she would see me and write a 'script and she refused because she was worried about being flagged if I went over 80 mgs a day.
A, I know you found a doctor in FL that did work for you and I'm glad about that.

[Spiritfree]

What strikes me about this post is its hostility.

I am also puzzled that you would say that something which did happen is "outlandish", based on your experience, which you must admit, was not "my" experience.

What I would like to know is whether you presented to hospital on any of those occassions as someone who was going to the hospital to be treated by a liver specialist who was treating his patients with baclofen or whether you went to the hospital after relapsing after you stopped taking baclofen, or whether you went to the hospital seeking help with baclofen withdrawal.

Why, I assume, you went to hospital nine times is that you were heavily intoxicated and needed treatment either because you were so drunk you were a danger to yourself or needed to be safely detoxed.

Otter -you are and remain a very hostile and hurtful person. You give yourself permission to strike out and try to cause harm to others on this forum simply because you know that you live in a part of the world that you will not experience any consequences as a result of your harmful words or actions on this forum. Would Dr. Ameisen be proud of you right now?